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Thread: 2017 American Political Scene

  1. #961
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  2. #962
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Agreed, Obama was an idealist that wanted to bring unity and cooperation etc. and he tried the bipartisan game for years only to get stonewalled. Unfortunately the no-hostages Tea Party tactics of the far Right were largely effective, and the far Left was paying attention.
    Like.

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Oh my God that press conference today was truly painful to watch. We really do have a 10 year old up there at the podium.
    I watched the whole lot, and glad I did,I'd encourage others to do so too, then laughed my ass off as the news reported it. No problem with it whatsoever. The whole 1 hour 17 minutes. I don't mind betting that in it's full context - a small insignificant portion of those chafing at the bit to criticize it would have too.

    No wonder the press approval rating is so dismal.

    Seriously at what point does one actually believe that a Trump National Security briefing is any different from an Obama briefing, and their internal deliberations on it are off the record & largely confidential.

    No real need to deliberate this as my word counts for nought but maybe rasmussen does: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ez_track_feb16 Not quite the hard left view of Trump after all.
    Ego Numquam

  4. #964
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    antimony,

    Trump's policies are so toxic that the American people, who gave him the greatest electoral victory since Reagan,
    not sure if this is sarcastic...but no...

    This reinforces my belief that the Dems should, after some token opposition leave Donny boy alone.
    hell no. if this were Mitt Romney, i'd say that Dems should look for areas of cooperation and oppose when necessary. with Donald it should be a war to the knife. he has broken too many norms for there to be an accommodation now.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #965
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    We Democrats tried the loyal opposition thing in 2002, and all we got out of it was ISIS.

    We encouraged GOPers to try the loyal opposition thing in 2009, and all we got out of it was threats to shut down the government during the worst economic and financial crisis in 75 years; a down-grading of US sovereign credit rating; and endless futile attempts to undo Obamacare, investigate Benghazi until something -- anything -- was found to discredit Clinton and Obama, and a refusal to even consider the President's Supreme Court nomination.

    OK, we were naive. We thought GOPers cared more for the nation than for their own narrow political interests.
    I admit it: We were wrong.

    So, no more Mr Nice Guy.
    You want to play hardball? Fine.
    Scorched earth it is.

    No quarter.

  6. #966
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    antimony,

    not sure if this is sarcastic...but no..
    In the words of Monica and Chandler, sense the tone

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    hell no. if this were Mitt Romney, i'd say that Dems should look for areas of cooperation and oppose when necessary. with Donald it should be a war to the knife. he has broken too many norms for there to be an accommodation now.
    The only thing the Dems needs to focus on is turn key seats blue in 2018. Opposing Donald in areas where he will self implode is self defeating. All the Dems need to do is fan the flames. Case in point, defense of Obamacare should be done not by Dem sources, but by mingling in among those constituents who are protesting that they will lose coverage. After that, if he still goes ahead and repeals, then the millions of his voters who cannot differentiate between ACA and Obamacare deserve whatever they had coming.

    In other words, let the country face the consequences/glory of their choice, while the Dems build themselves. The Dems also need to start looking for a 2020 face. Relying on Lizzy Warren with her advancing years and unpopularity is not going to cut it
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  7. #967
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    We Democrats tried the loyal opposition thing in 2002, and all we got out of it was ISIS.

    We encouraged GOPers to try the loyal opposition thing in 2009, and all we got out of it was threats to shut down the government during the worst economic and financial crisis in 75 years; a down-grading of US sovereign credit rating; and endless futile attempts to undo Obamacare, investigate Benghazi until something -- anything -- was found to discredit Clinton and Obama, and a refusal to even consider the President's Supreme Court nomination.

    OK, we were naive. We thought GOPers cared more for the nation than for their own narrow political interests.
    I admit it: We were wrong.

    So, no more Mr Nice Guy.
    You want to play hardball? Fine.
    Scorched earth it is.

    No quarter.
    They were doing something wrong and didn't care about the nation. We can do that, too!

    Does this mean you too don't care about the nation? Moreover, from London, UK?
    Last edited by Doktor; 17 Feb 17, at 16:15.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  8. #968
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    We Democrats tried the loyal opposition thing in 2002, and all we got out of it was ISIS.

    We encouraged GOPers to try the loyal opposition thing in 2009, and all we got out of it was threats to shut down the government during the worst economic and financial crisis in 75 years; a down-grading of US sovereign credit rating; and endless futile attempts to undo Obamacare, investigate Benghazi until something -- anything -- was found to discredit Clinton and Obama, and a refusal to even consider the President's Supreme Court nomination.

    OK, we were naive. We thought GOPers cared more for the nation than for their own narrow political interests.
    I admit it: We were wrong.

    So, no more Mr Nice Guy.
    You want to play hardball? Fine.
    Scorched earth it is.

    No quarter.
    Will that win back seats? Will the Dems get more state legislators and Governorships behind them? If yes, then fight on. If not, you need an alternate strategy.

    Stop worrying about the country and thinking only you guys know what is best. The country has spoken. If we as a nation have made a bad choice, then we should get to realize it by living the stupid policies that follow.

    The ONLY thing that matters for the Dems now, is getting back seats.

    As for the media, they need to start ignoring Trump. Focus on Bannon. You know what they should do? They should go to the Press conferences and ask if Bannon can answer some questions
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  9. #969
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    We Democrats tried the loyal opposition thing in 2002, and all we got out of it was ISIS.

    We encouraged GOPers to try the loyal opposition thing in 2009, and all we got out of it was threats to shut down the government during the worst economic and financial crisis in 75 years; a down-grading of US sovereign credit rating; and endless futile attempts to undo Obamacare, investigate Benghazi until something -- anything -- was found to discredit Clinton and Obama, and a refusal to even consider the President's Supreme Court nomination.

    OK, we were naive. We thought GOPers cared more for the nation than for their own narrow political interests.
    I admit it: We were wrong.

    So, no more Mr Nice Guy.
    You want to play hardball? Fine.
    Scorched earth it is.

    No quarter.
    Which makes the Democrats no better than the Republicans.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  10. #970
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    They were doing something wrong and didn't care about the nation. We can do that, too!

    Does this mean you too don't care about the nation? Moreover, from London, UK?
    Quite the opposite, it means respect the wishes of the people. You hate Obamacare (which covers millions of you)? Gone! You hate the TPP (which would have boosted US farm exports among others? DOA! You want to start trade wars ? Sir, yes, sir!

    Let Donald be Donald. If this goes on for 2 more years, I am not seeing a downside for the Dems, as long as they can get their houses in order.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  11. #971
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    antimony,

    i'll work a bit backwards here:

    Relying on Lizzy Warren with her advancing years and unpopularity is not going to cut it
    I agree, it is an indictment on Dem leadership and the DLC that the most popular faces of the party are all septuagenarian.

    In other words, let the country face the consequences/glory of their choice, while the Dems build themselves.
    can't build yourself in isolation. people need to see Dems actively opposing this administration. Dems have little enough power as it is, they need to exercise it or forfeit it.

    by the way, what I just said was a truism for both parties. for instance, I never expected Republicans in 2009 to roll over and allow Dems to 'face the consequences/glory of their choice'.

    Opposing Donald in areas where he will self implode is self defeating. All the Dems need to do is fan the flames. Case in point, defense of Obamacare should be done not by Dem sources, but by mingling in among those constituents who are protesting that they will lose coverage. After that, if he still goes ahead and repeals, then the millions of his voters who cannot differentiate between ACA and Obamacare deserve whatever they had coming.
    i've heard this argument before, i'm not persuaded. there's a lot of schadenfreude here, which I completely get. Republicans blowing up Obamacare without a matching replacement would certainly drive people into the arms of Dems...but there's no guarantee that Dems will then regain the stranglehold on power that they enjoyed in 2009 and then suddenly pass universal healthcare. creating legislation is always harder than opposing it, as Republicans are finding out now.

    instead, should Republicans go for repeal, Dems should fight it out, make it a messy process, and if they lose, THEN try to capitalize off the ensuing chaos.

    The only thing the Dems needs to focus on is turn key seats blue in 2018.
    that is only the start. there needs to be a revitalization of the Dems at the state level. GVChamp pointed out earlier about the institutional weakness of the Dems that HRC was papering over, the extent of which I disagreed with him about during the election. turns out he was certainly right. that needs to be fixed, and one of the silver linings of all the protests lately is that it's driven a huge interest in the Dem base on this very subject.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  12. #972
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Quite the opposite, it means respect the wishes of the people. You hate Obamacare (which covers millions of you)? Gone! You hate the TPP (which would have boosted US farm exports among others? DOA! You want to start trade wars ? Sir, yes, sir!

    Let Donald be Donald. If this goes on for 2 more years, I am not seeing a downside for the Dems, as long as they can get their houses in order.
    Well, impeach him ffs. I don't like the guy, but I love it how everything that the libdems were saying in the past 8 years from that high horse now makes them lokk stupid.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  13. #973
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    JAD,

    Which makes the Democrats no better than the Republicans.
    it is fully possible for Dems to go scorched earth without threatening the economic security of the United States, or the norms of governing.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  14. #974
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    JAD,



    it is fully possible for Dems to go scorched earth without threatening the economic security of the United States, or the norms of governing.
    Sure, since they are the smart guus and the others are deplorables
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  15. #975
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Well, impeach him ffs. I don't like the guy, but I love it how everything that the libdems were saying in the past 8 years from that high horse now makes them lokk stupid.
    Impeach him? Why? The people elected him, they should get a chance to taste his policies (when they come, if they come). If he gives the country away to Russia or bans immigrants, so be it. Meanwhile, lets repeal Obamacare.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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