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Thread: 2017 American Political Scene

  1. #2131
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reitz View Post
    All nations have had bad times. For example (and you can research this if you like) the Boers/Afrikaners were put in the very first concentration camps, 20% of our population perished, mostly our children. The 2nd Boer war saw 450 000 Professional British soldiers against 30 000 mere farmers. And we gave them one bloody nose. The Great British empire at its high water mark against mere farmers.
    It seems appropriate during a discussion on myth making by white Southerners that you should provide a near perfect example of myth making by white South Africans (well, Afrikaaners).

    Boers were not put in the first concentration camps (I have researched it). The term was borrowed from the 'reconcentration camps' used by the Spanish in Cuba in the 1895-98 war of independence. The term was freely used in the US press and crept into English via that route. The idea of removing civilian populations is, of course, is much older.

    I'm also very suspicious of the 20% figure. As you have focused on Boers its safe to assume you aren't counting the 20,000 or so black Africans who died in similar camps. That leaves about 26,000 unfortunate Boers who perished. A 20% death rate means there were only 130,000 Boers in both Republics. This seems pretty low, though I'll happily look at sources that suggest otherwise. That doesn't lessen the horror of what happened, but it does suggest a bit of exaggeration.

    Then there are the other numbers. There were not '450,000 Professional British soldiers' by any reasonable measure. Most of the soldiers who served in the British Army or the various Colonial contingents were volunteers with minimal training. Sure, they got paid, but that was no guarantee of quality. There were also more than 30,000 Boers. Quite a few more, in fact. Again, this does not diminish the spectacular results they achieved against overwhelming odds, but the monkeying with statistics says something about the purpose of the story.

    I'm not accusing you, but making a point about the stories you were told.

    You have unintentionally made a valuable contribution to this discussion. Thanks for giving us a real, live example of how a defeated white population can create its own mythology and use that to buttress a dictatorial & racially segregated state.
    Last edited by Bigfella; 19 Aug 17, at 15:04.


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  2. #2132
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Bannon's focus has always been "reviving" America's industrial strength and its preeminence in trade. Trump's "Make America Great Again" campaign, which translates to the same thing, is what drew Bannon to him in the first place and Trump to him. So, Bannon's departure from the White House will not fundamentally alter Trump's direction in this regard. It may, however, weaken Trump's ability to articulate his vision as he struggles to implement it.

    I think Bannon is taking one for the boss here. His hulking presence, scabby skin, and disheveled appearance gave him the appearance of an evil force. He had become too much of a lightening rod for critics looking for someone to blame for Trump's behavior. But all those critics and politicians who urged Trump to dump Bannon will not get a chastened Trump. Probably the best thing to come out of Bannon's departure will be a solidification of Kelly's control of the White House staff. But Kelly still has his work cut out for him. Trump is not going to be happy sitting quietly in his office alone with the door closed.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  3. #2133
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    I'm starting to lose track of whose who in White House. Do they publish a daily organization chart anywhere?
    You can use this for starters and grease pencil in new people or X them out.. Now about Conway...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #2134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooglin View Post
    If depictions of historical slave owners bothers you that much I'd be more than happy to take all your $1, $2, $10, $20, $100 bills from you and properly dispose of them.
    Factually incorrect, Benjamin Franklin was an abolitionist. All white supremacist, send me your $100 that depict a man who believed in equal rights. I'll also take your $50's, without Grant, Blacks would have remained in bondage.

  5. #2135
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Factually incorrect, Benjamin Franklin was an abolitionist. All white supremacist, send me your $100 that depict a man who believed in equal rights. I'll also take your $50's, without Grant, Blacks would have remained in bondage.
    Factually correct. Benjamin Franklin was a slave owner.

    "Almost all of our country's founding fathers owned slaves at one time or another, including Benjamin Franklin.

    Franklin owned two slaves, George and King, who worked as personal servants, and his newspaper, the Pennsylvania Gazette, commonly ran notices involving the sale or purchase of slaves and contracts for indentured laborers."
    Link

    He changed his views later in life and becamea an abolitionist, but Benjamin Franklin was indeed a slave owner at one point.

    This whole "slave owners on currency vs Confederates on statues" thing is a load of bullshit in any case. Just another case of false moral equivalency.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #2136
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reitz View Post
    If I may ask... if you destroy all that offends you. If There is no statues left. What do you teach your children? If you kill history then how could they learn from it? How do you make sense of your past if you destroy it? Mankind, our technology, our everything, is based on accumulative knowledge... some bad and some good.
    My kids will probably learn about history the same way I did: books and Wikipedia.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  7. #2137
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    The point is not whether the founding fathers owned slaves or not, the point is how they moved with the times. When the realization came that owning another human being was wrong, the confederates kept on going
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  8. #2138
    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Condoleezza Rice makes the case against sanitizing history better than any I've heard so far.

    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  9. #2139
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Condoleezza Rice makes the case against sanitizing history better than any I've heard so far.
    I agree with Rice that they were men of their times and they should be used to demonstrate history right and wrong.

    I do not agree with the interviewer who is trying to change the subject from Confederate statues over to the first eight Presidents being slave owners. He did it twice no less. If I had no idea about a Civil War and just came into this interview by chance I would think it was about the first eight of nine being slave owners and that was all. The interviewer is being disingenuous by asking about taking down their statues and not once mentioning what started it all... Confederate statues. Just like "The Lost Cause" scenario in that the war started over righteous state' rights and not over evil slavery.

  10. #2140
    Padishah Shahanshah Senior Contributor xerxes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    You can use this for starters and grease pencil in new people or X them out.. Now about Conway...
    The only that i think is properly depicted is the Bannon's camp: The isolationists
    vs.
    The globalist: McMaster, Cohn, Mattis etc.

    i prefer the second team: the devil that we know, the good old hawks with some pro-growth democratic blood (Cohn)
    If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

  11. #2141
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I agree with Rice that they were men of their times and they should be used to demonstrate history right and wrong.

    I do not agree with the interviewer who is trying to change the subject from Confederate statues over to the first eight Presidents being slave owners. He did it twice no less. If I had no idea about a Civil War and just came into this interview by chance I would think it was about the first eight of nine being slave owners and that was all. The interviewer is being disingenuous by asking about taking down their statues and not once mentioning what started it all... Confederate statues. Just like "The Lost Cause" scenario in that the war started over righteous state' rights and not over evil slavery.
    Its Fox and Friends, what would you expect
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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