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Thread: 2017 American Political Scene

  1. #2101
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    It's not that he had to back down. He was clear from the start that he doesn't condone racial bigotry or these white supremacist groups, but when it came to the actual riot he spread the blame to include counter-protest groups. There's plenty of evidence back up what he said. While most of the counter-protesters were peaceful, there were organized groups who blew into town with every intention of provoking violence. Still, I don't think it was smart for Trump to get into a fight over the issue. He just made it seem he was on the wrong side. The truth would have come out eventually.
    I watched a livestream of the whole affair. This article is mostly consistent with what I saw.

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...815-story.html

    It was all inevitable as there was very little police involvement. Nothing was keeping the two sides from pummeling each other. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't worse

  2. #2102
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    'Art Of The Deal' Co-Author Tony Schwartz Predicts Trump's About To Resign

    Donald Trump’s Art of the Deal co-author Tony Schwartz is predicting that the president is getting ready to call it quits ― and that the resignation will happen soon.

    He wrote on Twitter Wednesday:

    Tony Schwartz ✔ @tonyschwartz
    The circle is closing at blinding speed. Trump is going to resign and declare victory before Mueller and congress leave him no choice.
    1:34 PM - Aug 16, 2017

    Tony Schwartz ✔ @tonyschwartz
    Trump's presidency is effectively over. Would be amazed if he survives till end of the year. More likely resigns by fall, if not sooner.
    3:20 PM - Aug 16, 2017

    In followup tweets in response to questions, Schwartz predicted Trump would make a deal for immunity in the Russia investigation in exchange for his resignation.

    “The Russia stuff will be huge,” he wrote. “He doesn’t want to go to jail.”

    He also urged Trump’s opponents to keep up the pressure, and he slammed the president’s elder children.

    Tony Schwartz ✔ @tonyschwartz
    Trump must be isolated. Resistance every day. The end is near but must keep pressure high.
    6:58 PM - Aug 16, 2017

    Eric & Donald Trump Jr., dumber versions of their father. Ivanka Trump fake human and enabler. They all suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

    — Tony Schwartz (@tonyschwartz) August 16, 2017


    Schwartz has been predicting resignation as Trump’s endgame, making similar comments in May.

    “I surely believe that at some point over the next period of time he’s going to have to figure out a way to resign,” Schwartz told CNN at the time.

    Despite authoring a book with Trump, Schwartz advised the campaign of 2016 Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton for free.

    “This is my penance for having created a man who has become a monster,” he said in September. “I’ve spent 30 years feeling bad about it.”

    Schwartz also said he would donate his share of the profits from Art Of The Deal to the National Immigration Law Center, an organization that helps low-income immigrants. Link
    __________

    Oh please let it be so. Help us Obi-Robert Mueller, you're our only hope. And not a very good one apparently.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  3. #2103
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    IMHO Trump seems like someone who wouldn't resign even if the whole country was against him as long he was still the best thing ever to happen to the country in his own mind. And of course the whole country isn't against him clearly. The alt-right has praised his comments on Charlottesville. And even his other supporters are defending him.

  4. #2104
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    I have no words for this.
    Edit: Not from CHarlottesville apparently but another event in July.
    Last edited by Firestorm; Yesterday at 18:46.

  5. #2105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    I have no words for this.
    Which part? The banner, the KKK hats, the raised arm, the two Bonnie Blue flags or the fact that it's a black guy protecting them?
    (or, well, the fact that he doesn't seem to be equipped for his job at all, at least by European standards)

    Could've thrown some assault rifles in there for good measure. And i'm not seeing a single swastika. I mean, you got all the above together in Charlottesville.

  6. #2106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    You need to read all of what I said. Here it is for the third time:.

    "They can even kill people."

    "...there will be tragedies like Charlottesville, just as there has been for decades, centuries, really, no question about it."


    The salient point is that these lowlife genetic skidmarks lack military discipline. They lack the means to do anything beyond commit murder and then get mowed down in turn by law enforcement and/or National Guard troops carrying more firepower than these lowlifes could possibly imagine. I'll say it again, and for the last time: There will be no "uprising", no "race war", no "civil war".
    First of all, I do not think I said civil war. So let's not get jumpy about that. I did say uprising, only because noted conservative commentators have pointed that out. Now you may choose to disregard them, but these folks are roused on a daily basis by Breitbart, Infowars and their little Reddit subgroups. Everything is a conspiracy and US is going to hell in a handbasket unless Trump is at the helm, according to them. And they are saying stuff like this:

    10,000,000 people will march on Washington if they try to impeach Trump... they will be heavily armed. I will be one of them. No kidding
    http://www.techinvestornews.com/Tech...p.-they-will-b

    Even if there is no widespread uprising, you do agree that these folks can cause a lot of damage in riot situations.

    Isaac Simpson wrote a piece on how even a nonviolent protest by Trump supporters can make things difficult. I do not believe this to be necessarily possible, but it was an interesting read for me

    https://medium.com/@IsaacSimpson/if-...a-b7a2243399b7

    I do hope that you are right and it will be no more than a few disgruntled losers, for my own sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Look at these hate groups and tell me that the above paragraphs can be applied to them. As Zraver aptly pointed out "[This] is why there are almost as many WP groups as there are adherents. They will anathematize over the smallest details of purity."

    Regarding the US army flag and unit patches, YES, undoubtedly some of them were once military. And YES the US military undoubtedly has closeted white supremacists in its current ranks.
    However the presence of a patch or hat means nothing, as these can be purchased almost anywhere. I can buy and wear a Blue Max but it doesn't mean the Kaiser bestowed the Pour le Mérite on me.

    Regarding how they're holding their weapons, well, I can hold my rifle that way too. It doesn't mean I have military training. It means I've see a lot of CNN footage of real soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or a lot of Hollywood war movies.
    I agree that they would not stand up to real active duty soldiers and cops. However, these guys are training themselves hard, there is no doubt about that. The better counterpoint may be that regardless of how hard they train and how macho they appear, some of them still become little afraidy-cats at the prospect of facing cops

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  7. #2107
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    First of all, I do not think I said civil war. So let's not get jumpy about that. I did say uprising, only because noted conservative commentators have pointed that out.
    Yes. Uprising. Or whatever. It's Not Going To Happen. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Now you may choose to disregard them, but these folks are roused on a daily basis by Breitbart, Infowars and their little Reddit subgroups. Everything is a conspiracy and US is going to hell in a handbasket unless Trump is at the helm, according to them.
    Yes they are. They're saying an awful lot. They always have. They always will. Some of them will even stupidly take action. But an uprising? No. To put it succinctly, Trumpdom dies not with a bang but a whimper.

    10,000,000 people will march on Washington if they try to impeach Trump... they will be heavily armed. I will be one of them. No kidding
    The keyboard warrior that made that claim needs to knock a few zeros off his estimate. They'd be lucky if they can assemble 1000 idiots to "march" anywhere. A couple hundred at a time, at the very most.
    I'd love to know their logistical plan for making this happen, 10,000,000 or even just 1,000. And what are they planning to do once (or if, more likely) they even get to Washington? Probably wander around aimlessly before finally asking themselves "Uhh duhhhh....where do we go to find the Führer again?"

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Even if there is no widespread uprising, you do agree that these folks can cause a lot of damage in riot situations.
    *sigh* Yes. I've been saying that from Day One.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I do hope that you are right and it will be no more than a few disgruntled losers, for my own sake.
    If you're expecting mass riots -or uprisings- breaking out in dozens of cities across the US, with tens of thousands of heavily armed Trump supporters, that's not going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I agree that they would not stand up to real active duty soldiers and cops. However, these guys are training themselves hard, there is no doubt about that. The better counterpoint may be that regardless of how hard they train and how macho they appear, some of them still become little afraidy-cats at the prospect of facing cops
    Of course they're training themselves hard. That was never in dispute. I'm sure these guys have more time on a gun range than most cops. But, again, they lack military discipline needed to be more than a scattered group of imbeciles, some of whom cry like a little girl when the rubber meets the road.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  8. #2108
    Padishah Shahanshah Senior Contributor xerxes's Avatar
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    i don't have a dog in this fight/debate either way, but seems to be extremely short sighted to remove the Confederate statues.
    Perhaps raising new ones should be banned, but there is no need to undo history.
    If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

  9. #2109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    IMHO Trump seems like someone who wouldn't resign even if the whole country was against him as long he was still the best thing ever to happen to the country in his own mind. And of course the whole country isn't against him clearly. The alt-right has praised his comments on Charlottesville. And even his other supporters are defending him.
    Back in the 1980s there was a very famous Australia businessman with political aspirations called John Elliot. One day he was pulled over by the police after a long & boozy lunch. He refused to take a breath test that would have shown he was driving drunk, instead accepting the fine & license suspension for refusing a breath test. Thereafter if anyone ever mentioned he had been caught drunk driving he very loudly corrected them. He couldn't avoid a penalty, but he could still shape the narrative. All about maintaining the image, you see.

    Trump is also obsessed with image. He has an obsession with being the one in control and his morbid fear of being seen as a 'loser'. He can control a resignation. He can set his own time and construct a narrative - in this case it would be a 'deep state soft coup helped by the MSM' narrative that would appeal to the kool aid drinkers. If a premature end to his term is inevitable he can at least create a fantasy about it that his followers will cheerfully parrot back to him as truth.

    I could see this happening if the Mueller inquiry genuinely looked like it would get him locked up or impeached, though I'm not convinced either of those things is likely. I could also see it happening if he looked likely to lose in 2020, or perhaps even lose in the primaries. I'm not saying any of this is guaranteed, but I wouldn't write it off either.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  10. #2110
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxes View Post
    i don't have a dog in this fight/debate either way, but seems to be extremely short sighted to remove the Confederate statues.
    Perhaps raising new ones should be banned, but there is no need to undo history.
    Some history needs undoing. Check out the graphic at this link (for some reason I can't post it). There is a massive spike in memorialization from 1898 until 1920. Up to 1930ish there is still more activity than there was before 1898, then there is another spike in the 50s & 60s. Have a look at some of the events on the graphic that coincide with the memorialization booms.

    https://www.splcenter.org/sites/defa...conography.jpg

    This was overwhelmingly about supporting segregation and asserting white power. This was about creating myths about the 'lost cause' generations after the war was over in support of laws and attitudes the vast majority of us would find deeply offensive. There is no doubt some memorials are just about remembering the dead and those who fought, but when you see statues of Jefferson Davis & Robert E Lee popping up in places whose only connection to them was a short lived 'nation' created to defend slavery then I think its safe to assume this isn't about the 'ordinary soldier'.

    The issue is more complex than that, and I certainly don't see it in binary terms, but the 'history' being dealt with here is not the Civil War, but the generations of segregation that followed reconstruction. That history serves only as a warning to Americans about how their principles can be cast aside & democracy subverted in the name of prejudice.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  11. #2111
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    Remember one Timothy McVeigh who I recall was disgruntled about the strongarm Federal tactics at Ruby Ridge, possibly Branch Davidians among other Fed operations.

    They've got a huge memorial in OKC for the 168 men, women and children who died.

    Yup. Sad that one lone wolf can do a lot of damage...anywhere...anytime.
    Real eyes realize real lies.

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