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Thread: 2017 American Political Scene

  1. #2056
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Yeah, Robert E Lee gets a white-washed history from the Redeemers. He still should get judged by the opinion of his contemporaries and the context of his time, and he was still picked as the embodiment of national reconciliation. That absolutely does not mean racial reconciliation, because the majority of the nation was racist at the time.

    I'm not going to shed any tears if Southern states decide to tear down all these statues. He's hardly a national hero. But he's also hardly the most evil man of his time period, so I don't particularly care if they choose to pay respects for someone who fought for his people, especially if its a measured respect. Historical cultural icons are not people who are morally pure, and few cultures are going to pick the other side in a war, regardless of the relevant moral distinctions. Like, we celebrate the Mexican-American War and the Texas Independence War, even though Mexico banned slavery and the US didn't. And, no, you don't get to claim that some people in the US banned slaves or that we eventually banned slaves: we had slaves, they didn't, and we root for our side because we root for our side.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  2. #2057
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    If you guys want rid of your Robert E Lee statues... I wouldn't mind one. Not because of which side he fought for or the issues involved but because he was a great General.

  3. #2058
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    I think the monuments should be judged by why they were erected. If they were put up by veterans of their children they should be seen as history. if they were put up to reinforce Jim Crow they should be torn down.

  4. #2059
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do not have see anything wrong with both lots of extremist nutcases demonstrating. The crime or 'terrorism' comes from ramming your car into one lot or the other and killing someone and injuring others. It appears that this time it was the wannabe Nazi's who were responsible for the crime so calling for the wannabe commies to be done for terrorism in this case seems out of place to say the least. Both sides are as bad as each other in my view and quite alot of these 'marches' and 'demonstrations' are just excuses for a good punch up.
    Antifa had been attacking the demonstrators. The use of political violence is by its very definition terrorism.

  5. #2060
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Antifa had been attacking the demonstrators. The use of political violence is by its very definition terrorism.
    All violence in politics is a concession of losing the argument. Violence being 'terrorism' is relative. Some will be scared by the threat of violence, some by it's use - most of us were scared stiff the first time we were in a battle zone. I am not ashamed to admit it. But these protesters go for a punch up... they know their so called enemies will turn up. In many ways they do it to provoke a reaction. But it's one thing for these louts to have fisticuffs and another for the wannabe Nazi's to start driving cars in their supposed enemy's bunch and killing a person. I am a conservative yes but I am a democrat first. I believe in democracy and not murdering each other for political stupidity when basically the whole point is how to help others best and that is a debate not a war. It is a tragedy that your idiot traitor President has not had the gumption to use this tragic insanity to bring the US together - a public prayer, minute of silence or something - deny his links to the fascist wannabes. I like the Declaration of Independence myself "that all men are born equal" though I am from an old European aristocratic family. I do hope that the elected Conservatives will abandon this traitor of all the values so many have and still do fight for; choice.
    Last edited by snapper; 16 Aug 17, at 03:53.

  6. #2061
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    That particular General Lee statue was commissioned in 1917 and forged in 1924.
    Lee died in 1870.

    If one does a little research on the popular resurgence of the KKK's timeline one will notice a direct correlation.

    General Thomas "Stonewall"Jackson's bronze statue was commissioned at the same time and erected in 1921 at a nearby park in Charlottesville. Jackson died in 1868.

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed in July...53 years ago.

    Now do a bit of research as to all the good things that the Ku Klux Klan accomplished in Mississippi during 1964 prior to that Civil Rights Act being signed by President L.B. Johnson.

    Exactly why should the KKK; truly America's first original terrorist "White Supremist" organization founded in 1865, be allowed to even exist...let alone be given permits to march, spew their racist dogma and brandish their regalia in any American city ?

    Isn't it high-time for America to move forward to make sure that "these organizations truly don't have any place in America's fabric" in deed , and not just in words ?

    ◇ Thank you, Mr President. (At least your daughter initially sent the correct message.)

    [Edit: vocabulary]
    Last edited by PeeCoffee; 16 Aug 17, at 04:59.
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  7. #2062
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Middle of a black block march in an illegal assembly.
    Ever heard of civil disobedience? Yea know, the thing that Gandhi, Mandela, King did, without ramming their cars into anybody? Being part of a march, even an illegal march, does not equate to being violent.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  8. #2063
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    "Man,generalization is wrong''."Not all of them do it"."The majority is just peaceful,normal people who want a good life".
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  9. #2064
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Antifa had been attacking the demonstrators. The use of political violence is by its very definition terrorism.

    Paul Ryan, John McCain, General John Kelly, Elaine Chao, and Marco Rubio, disagree with that statement.
    David Duke does not.
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  10. #2065
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Paul Ryan, John McCain, General John Kelly, Elaine Chao, and Marco Rubio, disagree with that statement.
    David Duke does not.
    Which statement? Since you quoted two statements, which one are you accusing Zraver of being a racist for uttering exactly?

  11. #2066
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeCoffee View Post
    That particular General Lee statue was commissioned in 1917 and forged in 1924.
    Lee died in 1870.

    If one does a little research on the popular resurgence of the KKK's timeline one will notice a direct correlation.

    General Thomas "Stonewall"Jackson's bronze statue was commissioned at the same time and erected in 1921 at a nearby park in Charlottesville. Jackson died in 1868.

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed in July...53 years ago.

    Now do a bit of research as to all the good things that the Ku Klux Klan accomplished in Mississippi during 1964 prior to that Civil Rights Act being signed by President L.B. Johnson.

    Exactly why should the KKK; truly America's first original terrorist "White Supremist" organization founded in 1865, be allowed to even exist...let alone be given permits to march, spew their racist dogma and brandish their regalia in any American city ?

    Isn't it high-time for America to move forward to make sure that "these organizations truly don't have any place in America's fabric" in deed , and not just in words ?

    ◇ Thank you, Mr President. (At least your daughter initially sent the correct message.)

    [Edit: vocabulary]
    This is why I get uncomfortable with rhetoric like "has no place." Americans do not share the values of the KKK and do not want them to have political say. That does not mean we should actually ban them, because that's not in keeping with American values anymore than the KKK itself is. Plus, it's illegal.

    CommuNazis loyal to Cersei Lannister still have free speech and free assembly rights, the right to petition their representatives, etc. If they start raising armies, we can always arrest them.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  12. #2067
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    ALL,

    EVERYONE needs to knock off the name calling and denigration. It his a heated subject, yes, but you will not stoop to name calling and insults.

    That is a violation of the WAB rules.

    ALL have been warned...bans will be coming for continued behavior.

    Let's all clean up our act.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  13. #2068
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    Trump's latest comments didn't go down very well I suppose.

    Trump announces end to manufacturing council amid resignations

    After several business leaders announced their resignations from the White House's American Manufacturing Council in recent days, President Donald Trump announced he was ending the panel Wednesday, along with the separate Strategy and Policy Forum.

    "Rather than putting pressure on the businesspeople of the Manufacturing Council & Strategy & Policy Forum, I am ending both," wrote Trump on Twitter. "Thank you all!"

    Eight members of the American Manufacturing Council dropped from the panel following Trump's response to last weekend's violence in Charlottesville, Virginia. A ninth, Greg Hayes of United Technologies, announced his resignation just minutes after the president's tweet.

    Trump's insistence on repeatedly shooting himself in the foot is astounding. As is the ability of his supporters to forgive and defend him for anything and everything.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 16 Aug 17, at 19:15.

  14. #2069
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    Buying statues of Lee and Jackson! Got a Lenin and a Stalin. Need a Hitler perhaps.

  15. #2070
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    "Man,generalization is wrong''."Not all of them do it"."The majority is just peaceful,normal people who want a good life".
    Allow me to fill in the blanks

    "Man,generalization about Trump Supporters/ Conservatives is wrong''."Not all of Trump Supporters/ Conservatives do it"."The majority of Trump Supporters/ Conservative is just peaceful,normal people who want a good life"

    I agree.

    However, KKK, White supremacists (as opposed to regular Conservatives/ Republicans or even Trump supporters) etc. are not "peaceful, normal people" ( and need to be resisted by civil society wherever they turn up. That can be anything from teaching them a lesson if they decide to flex their muscles, to boycotting them and exposing them in social media.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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