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  • Originally posted by FJV View Post
    And Putin is confirmed "controlling" the US election which will cause the diplomatic shit to hit the fan for Russia.
    It will take them decades to live this down.
    Russia will be isolated from the entire West for decades and this move will be back on widespread citizen support.

    Maklng all trade /export impossible with the richest part of the world for decades is not a good deal for getting Trump impeached.
    Lets face it the largest consumer market is still in the US.

    No access to customers, no access to the latest tech, diplomaticly shunned in international matters, being regarded with extreme suspicion by everyone else.

    Cold war 2 for Russia, without allies.

    Pulling dirty tricks without nasty consequences ain't all that easy.
    Looks like my booze cruise around the muscovite dens are well n truly trumped now then grrr

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FJV View Post
      And Putin is confirmed "controlling" the US election which will cause the diplomatic shit to hit the fan for Russia.
      It will take them decades to live this down.
      Russia will be isolated from the entire West for decades and this move will be back on widespread citizen support.

      Maklng all trade /export impossible with the richest part of the world for decades is not a good deal for getting Trump impeached.
      Lets face it the largest consumer market is still in the US.

      No access to customers, no access to the latest tech, diplomaticly shunned in international matters, being regarded with extreme suspicion by everyone else.

      Cold war 2 for Russia, without allies.

      Pulling dirty tricks without nasty consequences ain't all that easy.

      Not quite that extreme, but no doubt this is an embarrassment for Putin. He, of course, never expected Russia to be caught in the act. Trump put the icing on the cake at his press conference yesterday. Keep in mind that he had been somewhat of a defender of Russia by calling into question US intel. Having now come around to believing that Russia was behind the hack, other countries will conclude that, if the number one skeptic was convinced by the classified intel, then the intel must have been solid. Assange had better watch his six, as well. Holed up in an embassy in London makes it hard for him to be sure the DNC emails didn't originally come from Russian sources.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

      Comment


      • JAD,

        Not quite that extreme, but no doubt this is an embarrassment for Putin.
        not sure why he would be embarrassed, though. as far as he's concerned, the Russian people are eating this up because it shows their influence as more than a has-been regional power.

        Having now come around to believing that Russia was behind the hack, other countries will conclude that, if the number one skeptic was convinced by the classified intel, then the intel must have been solid.
        not sure which other countries doubted the veracity of the intel. Trump seemed to have been a sole outlier.

        doubt there's going to be a Cold War 2 because the soon-to-be POTUS has made it crystal clear that he wants to have close relations with Putin. his advisors, his statements, the fact that he's willing to repeatedly take political hits to be friendly with Russia to the point where what would normally be ridiculous documents almost sound plausible.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • tankie,

          Looks like my booze cruise around the muscovite dens are well n truly trumped now then grrr
          there's only one place to do a right proper booze cruise and that is California.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            tankie,



            there's only one place to do a right proper booze cruise and that is California.
            Righty ho then , but Moscow was on my bucket list , shame with all the crap to go thro for a visa , right then where dya suggest in sunny/C then .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tankie View Post
              Righty ho then , but Moscow was on my bucket list , shame with all the crap to go thro for a visa , right then where dya suggest in sunny/C then .
              San Diego is a pretty choice spot. Beautiful beaches, beautiful women, a great big naval base, and Tijuana just across the border in Mexico...

              For other diversions it has arguably the best zoo in the world, you can tour an Aircraft Carrier (highly recommended) and Submarine, has a first class aquarium, etc.
              Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 12 Jan 17,, 21:58.

              Comment


              • Cheers Steve .

                Comment


                • Obammas parting shot goodbye and something for Trump to sort out .

                  US military
                  Russia says US troops arriving in Poland pose threat to its security
                  Early deployment of biggest American force in Europe since cold war may be attempt to lock Trump into strategy
                  Ewen MacAskill Defence correspondent
                  Thursday 12 January 2017 18.54 GMT First published on Thursday 12 January 2017 10.39 GMT

                  The Kremlin has hit out at the biggest deployment of US troops in Europe since the end of the cold war, branding the arrival of troops and tanks in Poland as a threat to Russia’s national security.

                  The deployment, intended to counter what Nato portrays as Russian aggression in eastern Europe, will see US troops permanently stationed along Russia’s western border for the first time.

                  About 1,000 of a promised 4,000 troops arrived in Poland at the start of the week, and a formal ceremony to welcome them is to be held on Saturday. Some people waved and held up American flags as the troops, tanks and heavy armoured vehicles crossed into south-western Poland from Germany, according to Associated Press.

                  But their arrival was not universally applauded. In Moscow, Vladimir Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov said: “We perceive it as a threat. These actions threaten our interests, our security. Especially as it concerns a third party building up its military presence near our borders. It’s [the US], not even a European state.”

                  The Kremlin may hold back on retaliatory action in the hope that a Donald Trump presidency will herald a rapprochement with Washington. Trump, in remarks during the election campaign and since, has sown seeds of doubt over the deployments by suggesting he would rather work with than confront Putin.

                  But on Thursday Nato officials played down Trump’s comments, saying they hoped and expected that he would not attempt to reverse the move after he became president on 20 January.



                  US to speed up deployment of troops to Poland, Romania and the Baltic
                  Read more
                  That prediction was reinforced by Trump’s proposed defence secretary, James Mattis, and his proposed secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, who backed Nato during Senate confirmation hearings.

                  Mattis, in rhetoric at odds with the president-elect, said the west should recognise the reality that Putin was trying to break Nato.

                  Tillerson, who has business dealings in Russia, described Russia’s annexation of Crimea as “as an act of force” and said that when Russia flexed its muscles, the US must mount “a proportional show of force”.

                  Nato was caught out by the Russian annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 and has struggled to cope with Russia’s use of hybrid warfare, which combines propaganda, cyberwarfare and the infiltration of regular troops disguised as local rebels.

                  In response, the US and its Nato allies have been steadily increasing air patrols and training exercises in eastern Europe. The biggest escalation is the current deployment of US troops, agreed at last summer’s Nato summit in Warsaw.

                  The move was billed as an attempt to reassure eastern European states who have been calling for the permanent deployment of US troops in the belief that Russia would be less likely to encroach on territory where US troops are present.

                  Peter Cook, the Pentagon press spokesman, said: “The United States is demonstrating its continued commitment to collective security through a series of actions designed to reassure Nato allies and partners of America’s dedication to enduring peace and stability in the region in light of the Russian intervention in Ukraine.”

                  Poland in particular has pressed for a permanent US troop deployment since soon after the fall of communism in 1989.

                  Nato officials insist that the US and other alliance troops deployed to eastern Europe are not “permanent”, which would be in breach of an agreement with Russia. The US plans to rotate the troops every nine months, so it can argue they are not in breach of the Russian treaty, but effectively there will be a permanent presence.

                  Deployment was originally scheduled for later in the month but a decision was made last month to bring it forward, possibly a move by Barack Obama before he leaves office to try to lock the president-elect into the strategy.

                  The troops from the Third Armor Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, based in Fort Carson, Colorado, along with hundreds of armoured vehicles and tanks, were moved from the US to Germany last week for transit by rail and road to Poland and elsewhere in eastern Europe. The US is sending 87 tanks, and 144 armoured vehicles.


                  As well as being stationed in Poland, the US troops will fan out across other eastern European states, including Estonia, Bulgaria and Romania.

                  The UK is also contributing to the buildup of Nato forces in eastern Europe. The UK formally took command this week of Nato’s response force, made up of 3,000 UK troops plus others from Nato who will be on permanent standby ready to deploy within days. The contributing countries include the US, Denmark, Spain, Norway and Poland.

                  Few at Nato seriously believe that war with Russia is likely but there have been dangerous developments, with escalation on both sides, including a buildup of Russian troops. Russia alarmed Poland and other eastern European states by moving nuclear-capable Iskander-M missiles to its naval base at Kaliningrad in the autumn. At the time Nato regarded the move as a response to its own deployments.

                  The Polish foreign minister, Witold Waszczykowski, voicing concern in eastern Europe that Trump might do a deal with Putin, said this week he hoped that any such reconciliation would not be at Poland’s expense.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FJV View Post
                    And Putin is confirmed "controlling" the US election which will cause the diplomatic shit to hit the fan for Russia.
                    They have already broken countless agreements (Helsinki, Budapest even the UN Charter) quite apart from interfering in your election and have an in coming President who they almost certainly have kompromat on... Is Trump about to do anything? Not a hope; he is compromised. I mean one can hope but seriously the way blackmail works is that the blackmailed party has less power than the blackmailer. Your logic is flawed.

                    Comment


                    • In essence Putin outsmarted Obama, he dodged the bullet with sanctions, expelling from G8... and installed a POTUS under Barry's watch? Is this what you are saying?
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                        They have already broken countless agreements (Helsinki, Budapest even the UN Charter) quite apart from interfering in your election and have an in coming President who they almost certainly have kompromat on... Is Trump about to do anything? Not a hope; he is compromised. I mean one can hope but seriously the way blackmail works is that the blackmailed party has less power than the blackmailer. Your logic is flawed.
                        The Russians have got nothing. What are they going to say? He made deals with them? He hired prostitutes to do kinky stuff? It's out there already. It doesn't stick. Even if it was real and they have actual video tapes, he'll call them fakes. Then, just to prove they are fake, Trump is going to do stuff that really hurts Russia. So, even if the Russians had anything, all they can do is STFU and deny.

                        The Russians do understand well how blackmail works. You blackmail people in positions of vulnerability and limited power. You don't blackmail someone like Trump. Blackmailing somebody like that is like blackmailing the mob. Metaphorically speaking, you'll end up face down in the gutter.
                        Last edited by citanon; 13 Jan 17,, 02:50.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          JAD,



                          not sure why he would be embarrassed, though. as far as he's concerned, the Russian people are eating this up because it shows their influence as more than a has-been regional power.
                          Not embarrassing at home, but among world leaders and diplomats. His homeys are like fans who boo when they know the foul was called correctly.



                          not sure which other countries doubted the veracity of the intel. Trump seemed to have been a sole outlier.
                          Outlier, yes, but soon to be president.

                          You better than I know that every country assesses important developments in other countries. When Trump was disparaging the administration's claim that Putin/Russia did the hacking, some countries were uncertain what the truth would turn out to be. This gave Putin some degree of plausible deniability. But now Trump had his much heralded classified briefing and has changed his tune. Now he's a believer. So I would imagine that analysts working in foreign ministries around the world would conclude that Russia is probably guilty as charged. After all, Trump, who heretofore was a non-believer, would not have changed his mind unless he had seen evidence almost as good as a signed confession by Putin.


                          doubt there's going to be a Cold War 2 because the soon-to-be POTUS has made it crystal clear that he wants to have close relations with Putin. his advisors, his statements, the fact that he's willing to repeatedly take political hits to be friendly with Russia to the point where what would normally be ridiculous documents almost sound plausible.
                          Without being specific, I think Trump sees Putin as part of a plan he has. Naturally, he would be annoyed at anything that threatens his chances to get off to a good start with Putin, so much so that he considers the political hits he takes as the price of success down the road.
                          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                            You mean things didn't go exactly the way you'd like them to go, and you blame that on there being a democrat in the White House. But if you were to take the conservative point of view, you'd see things differently. Speaking of obstructionism, I don't suppose you were critical of the Democratic-majority congress obstructing the GOP agenda when Bush was in the White House.
                            There's a major difference between the way Congressional/Senate Democrats behaved under George W Bush -- i.e., as a loyal opposition, despite the lies the administration told to launch an unnecessary war of aggression against a nation that wasn't involved in 9/11 -- and the efforts to undermine the Obama Administration while its trying to manage the Bush Depression.

                            Demanding budget cuts while staring a depression in the face is not looking after national interests.
                            Threatening to shut down the government while still in the process of rebuilding faith in the financial system is not looking after national interests.
                            Actions that result in a downgrading of nation's credit rating -- thereby increasing the cost of servicing W's debts, for no reason -- is not looking after national interests.
                            Trying to unfund, repeal, recall or otherwise disrupt Obamacare while the nation is facing its worst economic crisis in 75 years is not looking after national interests.

                            Blindly confirming presidential nominees, without proper vetting, would be as much against the national interest as was refusing to even consider the president's nominee for the Supreme Court.
                            Trust me?
                            I'm an economist!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                              There's a major difference between the way Congressional/Senate Democrats behaved under George W Bush -- i.e., as a loyal opposition, despite the lies the administration told to launch an unnecessary war of aggression against a nation that wasn't involved in 9/11 -- and the efforts to undermine the Obama Administration while its trying to manage the Bush Depression.

                              Demanding budget cuts while staring a depression in the face is not looking after national interests.
                              Threatening to shut down the government while still in the process of rebuilding faith in the financial system is not looking after national interests.
                              Actions that result in a downgrading of nation's credit rating -- thereby increasing the cost of servicing W's debts, for no reason -- is not looking after national interests.
                              Trying to unfund, repeal, recall or otherwise disrupt Obamacare while the nation is facing its worst economic crisis in 75 years is not looking after national interests.

                              Blindly confirming presidential nominees, without proper vetting, would be as much against the national interest as was refusing to even consider the president's nominee for the Supreme Court.
                              How is downgrading of the credit rating ONLY Congress's fault? It was the Administration who went full retard on S&P rating downgrade. Also, it was due to the deficit rise who were made by, khm, khm... your saint.
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                                How is downgrading of the credit rating ONLY Congress's fault? It was the Administration who went full retard on S&P rating downgrade. Also, it was due to the deficit rise who were made by, khm, khm... your saint.
                                Congress has the power of the purse.

                                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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