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  • GVChamp,

    I don't see what else the GOP could've done that would've been any better or won them anything they wanted.
    see my earlier post:

    a smarter, more tactically oriented GOP would have just shrugged and negotiated during the crafting of the ACA to throw in some more conservative ideas. instead, being in lockstep means that the Dems would also be free to ignore them.

    or, failing that, when the GOP got into power this year, get rid of a few taxes, declare a victory, and go on to what they REALLY care about-- tax reform, which is essentially giving away goodies vice taking them away.
    moreover, i would say that even had the GOP not capitalized on the ACA fracas-- which i agree would probably be too tempting of a target to ignore-- they would have certainly picked up seats anyway in 2010 and 2012 just by not being in charge.

    the big question now is if the tactical seat differential is going to be worth the decisive left-wing shift that the constant attacks on the ACA have engendered. if you recall, single-payer was considered too fringe to be even considered when Dems had a huge 2008 majority; now it is completely mainstream within the Democratic Party, and that's not least due to the Republicans running down the ACA.

    it is somewhat akin to the current President, for instance. a Pyrrhic victory that will ultimately do significantly greater damage to the conservative cause in the long run.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Sean Spicer has finally quit his job as White House press secretary. Rumour has it he's been head hunted by Bashir Assad, who was impressed with his dogged adherence to the script, no matter how far it departed from reality. Informed sources say Spicer is looking forward to a friendlier workplace.
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      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
        GVChamp,



        see my earlier post:



        moreover, i would say that even had the GOP not capitalized on the ACA fracas-- which i agree would probably be too tempting of a target to ignore-- they would have certainly picked up seats anyway in 2010 and 2012 just by not being in charge.

        the big question now is if the tactical seat differential is going to be worth the decisive left-wing shift that the constant attacks on the ACA have engendered. if you recall, single-payer was considered too fringe to be even considered when Dems had a huge 2008 majority; now it is completely mainstream within the Democratic Party, and that's not least due to the Republicans running down the ACA.

        it is somewhat akin to the current President, for instance. a Pyrrhic victory that will ultimately do significantly greater damage to the conservative cause in the long run.
        Flip this around to the present day. The BRCA is basically just a slightly watered down ACA with certain Medicaid cut provisions that probably won't stick. The recent defection of Mike Lee isn't because the bill is too conservative, it's basically it's still just watered-down ACA.

        Why can't 2-3 Dems just try to put some of their own stuff into the bill and vote for it? The alternative is running the risk of GOP repealing the whole thing, which could very well still happen.

        Same thing for GOP voting for ACA in the first place.

        If the GOP missed a pivot, it was still running on ACA repeal in 2013, after Obama was re-elected, IMO.
        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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        • GVChamp,

          Why can't 2-3 Dems just try to put some of their own stuff into the bill and vote for it?
          actually, Dem leadership was afraid of just that in January-- Dems like Heitkamp or Manchin defecting and working with the GOP.

          the political toxicity of Trump, though, plus the broad popular backlash, snuffed this out. McConnell quickly realized this, which is why his strategy with the BRCA was the complete opposite of what the Dems pursued with the ACA. Obama -wanted- that bipartisan sheen, which is why the ACA had 160+ Republican amendments. McConnell just wanted to pass this fast, and thus the BRCA had zero Democratic amendments.

          if Trump was interested in bipartisanship, it wouldn't have been particularly difficult to really split the Dems here, and even more so on infrastructure. as we all know, the coalition nature of the Dems make them more vulnerable to these type of tactics.

          If the GOP missed a pivot, it was still running on ACA repeal in 2013, after Obama was re-elected, IMO.
          true, but that also applies to today. there was no reason why the Republicans HAD to go for ACA repeal first and foremost. there was the argument that Obama made a bad political mistake by going for the ACA as early as he did, but at least his administration could very truthfully say that they had already passed stimulus and didn't believe that much further was needed on that front. no such excuse for the GOP.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • How amateur/incompetent can you get? Trumps staff forgot, didn't reserve hotel rooms for the G-20. And now we know that he thinks the first Lady of Japan doesn't know English.

            http://theweek.com/speedreads/713214...-talking-trump

            Doesn't He get briefed about the people that will be sitting around him? Conversation starters, Family, hobbies, things to avoid talking about?

            Holy shit, these are the people that are suppose to be in charge.

            I see she followed my grandmothers advice "If you cannot say something nice, don't say anything at all."

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            • Right now there are people all over the world who have been trapped next to Trump at dinner while he bloviates about how wonderful he is slapping their foreheads saying 'why didn't I think of that!'.
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              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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              • lol, i imagine that excuse would be rather harder for the poor Brits or Aussies or Kiwis, worst luck...
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  lol, i imagine that excuse would be rather harder for the poor Brits or Aussies or Kiwis, worst luck...
                  No one ever said life in the anglosphere is always beer & skittles. :-) That said, I reckon I could dig up a few Geordies, Glaswegians, Liverpudlians & Mancunians who would need a translator. I can also assure you that not all Australians have the same dulcet tones you encountered when we met. Some of us are quite the challenge. :-D
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                  Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                  • Is this the leakiest 6 month old Administration in living memory? I'm talking about the top level here. It sounds like senior people are leaking against other senior people like its sport. Apparently people speaking for Tillerson & McMaster have complained about leaks painting them as unhappy.

                    It all seems a bit 'Game of Thrones' with less nudity & swordplay (so far). It also looks a lot more like an Administration in year 3 with a whiff of death than newly minted and keen to crack on with doing stuff.

                    Throw in the increasing willingness of GOP members of Congress to ignore Trump and this already has a lame duck feel about it. No reason it can't be turned around, but this is usually the point where a new President has a mountain of political capital to burn.
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                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • And Trump had to add to the drama by going after his own Attorney General.
                      "They want to test our feelings.They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and their newspapers."

                      Protester

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                      • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                        Is this the leakiest 6 month old Administration in living memory? I'm talking about the top level here. It sounds like senior people are leaking against other senior people like its sport. Apparently people speaking for Tillerson & McMaster have complained about leaks painting them as unhappy.

                        It all seems a bit 'Game of Thrones' with less nudity & swordplay (so far). It also looks a lot more like an Administration in year 3 with a whiff of death than newly minted and keen to crack on with doing stuff.

                        Throw in the increasing willingness of GOP members of Congress to ignore Trump and this already has a lame duck feel about it. No reason it can't be turned around, but this is usually the point where a new President has a mountain of political capital to burn.
                        Be glad your not a Boy Scout. Those poor kids and what they had to listen if they understood a word of it. Talk about uplifting and what it means to be a Scout... not.

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                        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                          Be glad your not a Boy Scout. Those poor kids and what they had to listen if they understood a word of it. Talk about uplifting and what it means to be a Scout... not.
                          It is once again amusing to watch the differing responses from those who spent the past 8 years supposedly setting the standards to which a President should be held. Trump has repeatedly used inappropriate occasions to make highly politicized or just plain bizarre speeches - the CIA memorial wall, Coast Guard cadets & now the poor Boy Scouts have been subjected to the sort of thing more suited to a drunk at a bar. Where are the screams of 'narcissism'? Where are people who attacked Obama at every opportunity for behavior not a fraction as bad as Trump? Where are the people who went on and on and on about him not saluting military personnel now that Trump has been filmed doing the same?

                          The scary thing is that having delivered the most manifestly unqualified President since....well before anyone here was born.....these people are not going to accept one fraction of responsibility for his failings.
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                          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                          • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                            It is once again amusing to watch the differing responses from those who spent the past 8 years supposedly setting the standards to which a President should be held. Trump has repeatedly used inappropriate occasions to make highly politicized or just plain bizarre speeches - the CIA memorial wall, Coast Guard cadets & now the poor Boy Scouts have been subjected to the sort of thing more suited to a drunk at a bar. Where are the screams of 'narcissism'? Where are people who attacked Obama at every opportunity for behavior not a fraction as bad as Trump? Where are the people who went on and on and on about him not saluting military personnel now that Trump has been filmed doing the same?

                            The scary thing is that having delivered the most manifestly unqualified President since....well before anyone here was born.....these people are not going to accept one fraction of responsibility for his failings.
                            Have you forgotten so soon?
                            Obama is a highly educated, articulate, classy, as-middle-of-the-road-as-it-gets, mixed-race Democrat.
                            Of course the haters are gonna hate.
                            He makes them look bad.
                            Trust me?
                            I'm an economist!

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                            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              GVChamp,



                              actually, Dem leadership was afraid of just that in January-- Dems like Heitkamp or Manchin defecting and working with the GOP.

                              the political toxicity of Trump, though, plus the broad popular backlash, snuffed this out. McConnell quickly realized this, which is why his strategy with the BRCA was the complete opposite of what the Dems pursued with the ACA. Obama -wanted- that bipartisan sheen, which is why the ACA had 160+ Republican amendments. McConnell just wanted to pass this fast, and thus the BRCA had zero Democratic amendments.

                              if Trump was interested in bipartisanship, it wouldn't have been particularly difficult to really split the Dems here, and even more so on infrastructure. as we all know, the coalition nature of the Dems make them more vulnerable to these type of tactics.



                              true, but that also applies to today. there was no reason why the Republicans HAD to go for ACA repeal first and foremost. there was the argument that Obama made a bad political mistake by going for the ACA as early as he did, but at least his administration could very truthfully say that they had already passed stimulus and didn't believe that much further was needed on that front. no such excuse for the GOP.
                              Agreed more or less, Trump is particularly toxic and ruins the ability of any real bipartisan consensus. He's not a good choice for the office of President. I don't think it's that Trump himself is particularly uninterested in partisanship, he's just not really able to build any sort of consensus because he's not a particularly good politician.

                              Keep in mind that a large fraction of the Republican party hates Obama just as much as the Left hates Trump, and the Republicans were under as much pressure not to cooperate in 2009 as the Dems are today.

                              I also don't see how GOP couldn't realistically not go for ACA repeal, when that's what they ran on for the last 8 years, anymore than the Dems could run on universal healthcare in 2008 and NOT try to do that first thing in 2009. GOP honestly isn't going to get a better shot to repeal ACA, they'll probably lose House seats in 2018 (even if they gain the Senate).


                              as-middle-of-the-road-as-it-gets
                              Obama is significantly to the left of the last Democratic President before him.

                              Also, even if you are a moderate Republican, a moderate Democrat is still significantly to the left of you.
                              Last edited by GVChamp; 26 Jul 17,, 15:52.
                              "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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                              • GVChamp,

                                the Republicans were under as much pressure not to cooperate in 2009 as the Dems are today.
                                i don't know if it actually ran like that in the context of early 2009. IIRC, Obama had something like a 65-70% approval rating around Inauguration Day, and was still in the 55-60% range as late as November 2009.

                                of course, with the rise of the Tea Party in fall of 2009, there's a much better argument for grassroots Republican pressure. but this begs the chicken-and-egg question.

                                the Left hatred of Trump has been considerably more organic and immediate, in part because Trump spurned even the weakest attempt to invite his opponents into the fold, indeed rubbing some more dirt into the faces of the defeated.

                                I also don't see how GOP couldn't realistically not go for ACA repeal, when that's what they ran on for the last 8 years, anymore than the Dems could run on universal healthcare in 2008 and NOT try to do that first thing in 2009.
                                if it was such a priority for the GOP, you'd think they'd have put significantly greater thought into this. even today they're not sure what they're for...or against. the policy chaos is real.

                                GOP honestly isn't going to get a better shot to repeal ACA, they'll probably lose House seats in 2018 (even if they gain the Senate).
                                the way it's gamed out for them doesn't bode well, though. doing a symbolic repeal would do them least harm. the more significant the change is, the higher the risk that they lose big over the next three-four years. if they lose big, really big, then they've effectively traded ACA for single-payer.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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