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The Terror of Fake News

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    • Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
      Hence virtually everything printed by the NYT being faked, as all the stories claimed anonymous officials had wiretapped Trumps campaign, such as the two I linked above.
      It really isn't that difficult. The entire basis for the 'Trump/Russians' fake news meme were articles quoting anonymous officials saying surveillance of Trumps campaign had taken place and were the basis of the security establishments fear that Trump was in bed with the Russians. The NYT, WAPO and the Guardian as the three main culprits.
      It turns out according to Comey, those October and November stories (I've linked lots more in this thread and the politics thread as well) and the subsequent entire "Trumps in bed with the Russians" meme was faked.
      The only questions are who made it up; the media, or the former administration. I'd rather suspect when we know who unmasked Flynn, we'll know who generated that particular fake news propaganda.
      Forgive me but I do not think this can be said to be 'true' or even 'correct'. 17 Intelligence and law enforcement agencies say there was Muscovite interference in the US election; the French and German authorities are saying they are detecting signs of the same now. We KNOW the DCleaks and wikileaks info was hacked by the Muscovites; bots were also used on social media sites to swamp the information space. Many 'fake news' items (such as the Pope endorsed Trump) came from sleepy villages in Macedonia and Albania. These are facts and I take it you do not deny this so far?

      The second part of the story is the number of links Trump advisors (and some later appointees) had with Moscow from Manafort, Carter Page, Roger Stone, to Flynn, Sessions and Trump himself. His daughter holidays in Croatia with Putin's Lady friend for Christs sake. We also know that Trump asked Moscow publicly to go after Clinton's emails. We know that some of the these people appear to have advanced knowledge that a new dump of the hacked information was due - as did RT - before it was dumped. We know that senior Republicans were concerned about Trump's Muscovite ties - sufficiently so to take advice and hire Orbis Business Intelligence (in London) to start inquiries - the 'Trump dossier' started off being asked for and funded by Republicans, though after Trump won the nomination it was continued by Democrat funding. We know Trump and his whole team have consistently lied about having any contacts with Moscow during or after the campaign as has Trump himself regarding his contacts. Nearly every meeting alleged in the dossier is now confirmed to have taken place. Carter Page even admits he visited Moscow on the instructions of the campaign. These are not conjectures or theories but facts. To say that someone invented the meme would be incorrect; when it walks like a duck etc you are not entirely unreasonable for supposing it may a duck. If the FBI etc were not checking if there is a link they would surely be failing in their duty. To say that all this evidence and the Trump teams consistent lies on this specific matter is all "pure coincidence" may in theory still be possible - if one has no experience of Muscovite disinformation techniques in particular. Not too long ago all Ukrainian were 'fascists' for defending our own sovereign territory. There are no 'coincidences' in a GRU operation; Girkin (Strelkov) "just happened" to have recently "left" the GRU as a Colonel and ended up as Minister of Defence of some so called Republic in Ukraine was not a 'coincidence'. Neither are the Trump peoples continued denials which are subsequently proved to be false.

      This is not about just Trump or just Ukraine; they both parts of the same war whether you like it or not. The Frogs and Krauts are finding out about now - though Merkel I think already understood. Get real, get prepared or get out - as I wrote to my Sisters (who have small people) last month. It is likely to get hotter before it ends.

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      • lol snapper, why bother-- it's clear someone is riding the Trump Train and has no plans of ever getting off. last stop, Moscow.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
          lol snapper, why bother-- it's clear someone is riding the Trump Train and has no plans of ever getting off. last stop, Moscow.
          Because the intellectual war can only be won by truth.

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            Mhm..
            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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            • Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Forgive me but I do not think this can be said to be 'true' or even 'correct'.
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              lol snapper, why bother-- it's clear someone is riding the Trump Train and has no plans of ever getting off. last stop, Moscow.
              And it just gets funnier and funnier :)



              Trump derangement syndrome seems to be in full swing.
              Last edited by Parihaka; 22 Mar 17,, 23:01. Reason: video link reset
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

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              • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                Forgive me but I do not think this can be said to be 'true' or even 'correct'. 17 Intelligence and law enforcement agencies say there was Muscovite interference in the US election; the French and German authorities are saying they are detecting signs of the same now.
                Ohh, and both Michael Morell and James Clapper disagree with you.

                Morell, who was in line to become CIA director if Clinton won, said he had seen no evidence that Trump associates cooperated with Russians. He also raised questions about the dossier written by a former British intelligence officer, which alleged a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia.

                His comments were in sharp contrast to those of many Clinton partisans — such as former communications director Jennifer Palmieri — who have stated publicly they believe the Trump campaign cooperated with Russia's efforts to interfere in the election against Clinton.

                Play House investigates collusion between Trump and Russia Facebook Twitter Embed
                House investigates collusion between Trump and Russia 5:04
                Morell said he had learned that the former officer, Christopher Steele, paid his key Russian sources, and interviewed them through intermediaries.

                "On the question of the Trump campaign conspiring with the Russians here, there is smoke, but there is no fire, at all," Morell said at an event sponsored by the Cipher Brief, an intelligence web site.

                "There's no little campfire, there's no little candle, there's no spark. And there's a lot of people looking for it."

                Related: CIA Concludes Russia Mounted Operation To Help Trump Win

                Morell pointed out that former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said on Meet the Press on March 5 that he had seen no evidence of a conspiracy when he left office January 20.

                "That's a pretty strong statement by General Clapper," Morell said.

                About the dossier, Morell said, "Unless you know the sources, and unless you know how a particular source acquired a particular piece of information, you can't judge the information — you just can't."

                The dossier "doesn't take you anywhere, I don't think," he said.
                But you already know that.
                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

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                • Wait, NBC is fake news or not? I am lost.
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                  Comment


                  • that the Russians were actively interfering with the US election is a known.

                    that the Russians were actively interfering with the US election to elect Trump is assessed as high probability by US intel.

                    that Trump associates were taking money from Russian organizations is a known.

                    and what the FBI is now looking into is whether or not those same associates were working in league with the Russians during the election.

                    if by "fire" you mean evidence of collusion to the point of an impeachable offense, i agree, we're not there yet.

                    operative word: yet. the investigation continues. we'll see where it leads. none of this is "Trump derangement syndrome".

                    the only "Trump derangement syndrome" i see is the person with said name Twittering away at 3 in the morning with a new daily foul accusation or asinine conspiracy theory.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      that the Russians were actively interfering with the US election is a known.

                      that the Russians were actively interfering with the US election to elect Trump is assessed as high probability by US intel.

                      that Trump associates were taking money from Russian organizations is a known.

                      and what the FBI is now looking into is whether or not those same associates were working in league with the Russians during the election.

                      if by "fire" you mean evidence of collusion to the point of an impeachable offense, i agree, we're not there yet.

                      operative word: yet. the investigation continues. we'll see where it leads. none of this is "Trump derangement syndrome".

                      the only "Trump derangement syndrome" i see is the person with said name Twittering away at 3 in the morning with a new daily foul accusation or asinine conspiracy theory.
                      And yet we now haves Nunes stating categorically that various members of Trumps transition were surveilled and the information gleaned was widely disseminated, including their names. As you said, the investigation continues. Have we had a definitive statement from the DoJ yet as to whether FISA requests were made for surveillance of Trump, his campaign and or his transition team? I recall Comey specifically asking them to do this two weeks ago.
                      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                      Leibniz

                      Comment


                      • And yet we now haves Nunes stating categorically that various members of Trumps transition were surveilled and the information gleaned was widely disseminated, including their names.
                        actually, what Nunes said was that there were intelligence intercepts with -incidentally gathered information- on members of the Trump transition team. that's not "were surveilled", which implies those members were deliberately targeted.

                        Have we had a definitive statement from the DoJ yet as to whether FISA requests were made for surveillance of Trump, his campaign and or his transition team?
                        we had a definitive statement from Comey.

                        With respect to the president's tweets about alleged wiretapping directed at him by the prior administration, I have no information that supports those tweets and we have looked carefully inside the FBI. The Department of Justice has asked me to share with you that the answer is the same for the Department of Justice and all its components. The department has no information that supports those tweets.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          actually, what Nunes said was that there were intelligence intercepts with -incidentally gathered information- on members of the Trump transition team. that's not "were surveilled", which implies those members were deliberately targeted.
                          He confirms the information was deliberately disseminated outside the intel community and that the names were unmasked, both of which which Comey confirmed to Gowdy was a criminal act.
                          Fun times ahead, given the limited number of people who could request that unmasking and are therefore lead candidates as leakers. Trey Gowdy seems happy to publicly name his seven suspects.


                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          we had a definitive statement from Comey.
                          Splendid, then all the claims from the press and the Democrat party around information around FISA requests as a basis for the Trump campaigns collusion with Russia is confirmed as "Fake News".
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • pari,

                            He confirms the information was deliberately disseminated outside the intel community and that the names were unmasked, both of which which Comey confirmed to Gowdy was a criminal act.
                            Fun times ahead, given the limited number of people who could request that unmasking and are therefore lead candidates as leakers.
                            it's certainly true that the -act- of leaking is illegal. on the other hand, that was precisely the situation that Deep Throat and the Pentagon Papers leaker found themselves in. the question is if Republicans really want to focus their attention on this, because to paraphrase Kasparov, it is akin to having a house on fire and investigating the people that called for the Fire Department.

                            and if worse skulduggery is found, this will be seen as whistleblowing, not leaking.

                            this is why while some Republicans are of course using this opportunity to call for an 'investigation of the leaks', most Republicans are trying to just make this all go away, because in the long-term this is not a favorable political calculus.

                            by the way, regarding the Nunes statement specifically: Nunes himself says that "This is a normal, incidental collection, based on what I could collect...This appears to be all legally collected foreign intelligence under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act." the main issue is dissemination WITHIN the intelligence community, not outside...and Nunes says he has no information on the dissemination list.

                            Splendid, then all the claims from the press and the Democrat party around information around FISA requests as a basis for the Trump campaigns collusion with Russia is confirmed as "Fake News".
                            you realize that the original champion of this argument was Lindsey Graham, -not- the "press and the Democrat party"?

                            and this is a direct response to the original Trump tweet. the point being, IF what Trump says is true, THEN...

                            but of course, no one took what Trump said seriously. well, other than Trump himself-- although you did give it the ol' college try.
                            Last edited by astralis; 23 Mar 17,, 01:35.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                              pari,



                              it's certainly true that the -act- of leaking is illegal. on the other hand, that was precisely the situation that Deep Throat and the Pentagon Papers leaker found themselves in. the question is if Republicans really want to focus their attention on this, because to paraphrase Kasparov, it is akin to having a house on fire and investigating the people that called for the Fire Department.
                              Except of course Nunes made it perfectly clear none of the recorded and disseminated information had anything to do with the Russians. Just whatever could be found from Trumps team on whatever subject.
                              That's not bravely standing up to corruption, that IS corruption.
                              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                              Leibniz

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                                you realize that the original champion of this argument was Lindsey Graham, -not- the "press and the Democrat party"?
                                Nope, Louise Mensch, picked up by the NYT, WAPO and the Guardian as I've already linked to. Graham, McCain and the Dems took it up once reported by those propaganda outlets, although special mention goes to McCain for disseminating the 'golden shower' dossier. So, to correct my previous statement
                                Splendid, then all the claims from the press and the Democrat party (along with Graham and McCain) around information around FISA requests as a basis for the Trump campaigns collusion with Russia is confirmed as "Fake News".
                                You need to learn to dodge faster.
                                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                                Leibniz

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