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  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
    Lol, so the position now is just people involved in the transition were wholesale monitored but possibly not Trump himself unless he and Nunes can prove it hah ha ha?
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

    Comment


    • "wholesale monitored", yeah, only no one knows whom, when, or the conditions under which they were incidentally collected on.

      such evidence so impressed very wow.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • It's just so hard to keep track of Asty.
        First it was reported the whole Trump team was being monitored by several agencies, Obama officials were leaking details wholesale, it was reported the White House was monitoring the various intercepts from various agencies and everybody in the Dem camp was going HOORAY, impeachment before he can even swear the oath.

        Then....
        Trump says he was being wiretapped by the Obama administration and everyone amongst the media and the Democrats goes WTF, what a doofus, we don't have wires any more, ha ha what a retard liar.

        Of course as MIT says

        Wiretapping is the traditional term for interception of telephone conversations. This should not be taken too literally. The word is no longer restricted to communications traveling by wire, and contemporary wiretaps are more commonly placed on radio links [ed. cell phones] or inside telephone offices. The meaning has also broadened in that the thing being tapped need no longer be a telephone call in the classic sense; it may be some other form of electronic communication, such as a fax or data.
        But never mind the experts, besides, Saint Obama would never do such a thing despite every socialist rag in the world claiming for the past 3 months that he had in fact done just that, and every Democrat going haha ha, we have you now Mr Trump.

        Now of course we're back to 'yes it was done but just incidentally, the names weren't masked accidentally, and it was by magic that various members (including Flynn) were accidentally recorded, left unmasked, and leaked to the press.'

        It was all just accidents. Like Comey saying no monitoring of any of the Trump team took place, then the next day saying they'd been investigating the Trump team for six months. How exactly? By reading the newspapers?

        Given Occams razor it's all getting rather hard to believe, and much easier to believe that the Obama administration actively monitored Trumps campaign and disseminated information to the various Democrat propaganda outlets, in collusion with various political appointees within the intelligence services. The needle is definitely swinging to 'Banana Republic'.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

        Comment


        • ...
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          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

          Comment


          • you brought up Nunes.

            now Nunes has backed off, said that he didn't have all the documents, can't be sure whether conversations among Trump or his aides were actually captured in surveillance, has refused to disclose his sources, AND admitted that from what he saw, the names of Trump aides were blacked out (but that he "could figure them out anyway", which is why he wants an investigation on IF the correct masking procedures have been done).

            in short, "i've no evidence any of this happened, but let's just say it did".

            similar to what you're doing here.
            Last edited by astralis; 26 Mar 17,, 06:01.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              you brought up Nunes.

              now Nunes has backed off, said that he didn't have all the documents, can't be sure whether conversations among Trump or his aides were actually captured in surveillance, has refused to disclose his sources, AND admitted that from what he saw, the names of Trump aides were blacked out (but that he "could figure them out anyway", which is why he wants an investigation on IF the correct masking procedures have been done).

              in short, "i've no evidence any of this happened, but let's just say it did".

              similar to what you're doing here.
              And EXACTLY what you, the Democrat party (including McCain + McConnell) and all your socialist rags have been doing to Trump inc. for the last three months.

              I really don't think you've realised the implications of Trumps election. Yes he destroyed the Republican party on the way through, but his main accomplishment was the destruction of the Democrat Talking Memos. Every tactic that's been used by the Dems to sideline and denegrate conservatives over the past 30 years will now be returned with interest. Re-branding "fake news" as democrat and purveyed by legacy media is just the first step. Why fight Alinsky rules when you can use them?
              And so, back to the beginning of this thread:

              Asty, is the news pumped out for the last three months by you and your Democrat party and propaganda organs "Fake News", or has there been wholesale monitoring of Trump Inc?
              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

              Leibniz

              Comment


              • If indeed "Obama did spy on Trump" then it would be illegal. If there was 'incidental collection' following the issuing of a FISA say so then it is not illegal and not Obama. We know (because Comey said so) there has been an ongoing FBI investigation into Muscovite interference since last July so are you saying this investigation is Obama or illegal? Clearly it is neither. If so many of Trumps team end up being caught speaking to Moscow you have to question why that may be. Nunes has clearly lost the plot; his latest move has been to unilaterally cancel an open hearing this coming Tuesday so anxious is he to get the bottom of the 'leaks' and 'Obama spied on me' BS. Or maybe he is scared to hear more evidence on Trumps collusion to interfere with the election.

                Comment


                • Wait, I am lazy here, but are they publicly saying they were monitoring foreign diplomats or just members of Trump team?
                  Which one is it?
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    Wait, I am lazy here, but are they publicly saying they were monitoring foreign diplomats or just members of Trump team?
                    Which one is it?
                    One can only wonder

                    The Guardian – January 11, 2017
                    The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The Fisa court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation
                    The New York Times – January 12, 2017

                    In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.

                    The new rules significantly relax longstanding limits on what the N.S.A. may do with the information gathered by its most powerful surveillance operations, which are largely unregulated by American wiretapping laws. These include collecting satellite transmissions, phone calls and emails that cross network switches abroad, and messages between people abroad that cross domestic network switches.

                    The change means that far more officials will be searching through raw data. Essentially, the government is reducing the risk that the N.S.A. will fail to recognize that a piece of information would be valuable to another agency, but increasing the risk that officials will see private information about innocent people.
                    The BBC – January 17, 2017

                    Lawyers from the National Security Division in the Department of Justice then drew up an application. They took it to the secret US court that deals with intelligence, the Fisa court, named after the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. They wanted permission to intercept the electronic records from two Russian banks.

                    Their first application, in June, was rejected outright by the judge. They returned with a more narrowly drawn order in July and were rejected again. Finally, before a new judge, the order was granted, on 15 October, three weeks before election day.

                    Neither Mr Trump nor his associates are named in the Fisa order, which would only cover foreign citizens or foreign entities – in this case the Russian banks. But ultimately, the investigation is looking for transfers of money from Russia to the United States, each one, if proved, a felony offence.

                    A lawyer – outside the Department of Justice but familiar with the case – told me that three of Mr. Trump's associates were the subject of the inquiry. "But it's clear this is about Trump," he said.
                    McClatchy - January 18, 2017

                    The agencies involved in the inquiry are the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and representatives of the director of national intelligence, the sources said. …

                    A key mission of the six-agency group has been to examine who financed the email hacks of the Democratic National Committee and Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta. The London-based transparency group WikiLeaks released the emails last summer and in October.

                    The working group is scrutinizing the activities of a few Americans who were affiliated with Trump’s campaign or his business empire and of multiple individuals from Russia and other former Soviet nations.

                    The BBC reported that the FBI had obtained a warrant on Oct. 15 from the highly secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court allowing investigators access to bank records and other documents about potential payments and money transfers related to Russia. One of McClatchy’s sources confirmed the report.
                    The New York Times - Jan 19, 2017

                    Print headline: "Wiretapped Data Used In Inquiry of Trump Aides" …

                    The F.B.I. is leading the investigations, aided by the National Security Agency, the C.I.A. and the Treasury Department’s financial crimes unit. The investigators have accelerated their efforts in recent weeks but have found no conclusive evidence of wrongdoing, the officials said. One official said intelligence reports based on some of the wiretapped communications had been provided to the White House.
                    The Washington Post - February 9, 2017


                    Headline: "National security adviser Flynn discussed sanctions with Russian ambassador, despite denials, officials say"

                    National security adviser Michael Flynn privately discussed U.S. sanctions against Russia with that country’s ambassador to the United States during the month before President Trump took office, contrary to public assertions by Trump officials, current and former U.S. officials said.

                    Flynn’s communications with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak were interpreted by some senior U.S. officials as an inappropriate and potentially illegal signal to the Kremlin that it could expect a reprieve from sanctions that were being imposed by the Obama administration in late December to punish Russia for its alleged interference in the 2016 election.
                    Remember: Flynn's name was meant to be masked, we now know this was from a Russian intercept, yet "some senior U.S. officials" had all seen it and commented.
                    FBI Director James Comey confirmed Monday that former Obama administration officials — including several at the White House — would have had access to classified information about former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn that several news organizations published.
                    CNN - February 14, 2017

                    Washington Post columnist David Ignatius cited a single "senior U.S. government official" while reporting that "Flynn phoned Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak several times on Dec. 29, the day the Obama administration announced the expulsion of 35 Russian officials as well as other measures in retaliation for the hacking." …

                    Last Thursday, The Post cited "nine current and former officials" in a story headlined "National security adviser Flynn discussed sanctions with Russian ambassador, despite denials, officials say."

                    The New York Times quickly matched the story and said there was a transcript of the discussions.


                    The chronology suggests that some officials in the government sought to alert the public to Flynn's contacts by leaking to the press.
                    There's plenty more of course but repetition gets boring.

                    So which is it: are all these stories fake news, or did the Obama administration wiretap Trump and his team? One is a massive campaign of fake news on behalf of the Democrat party, the other is a whole series of felonies by the Obama administration.
                    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                    Leibniz

                    Comment


                    • I guess I didn't realize that Flynn's (alledged) violation of the Logan Act should be blamed on the Obama Administration.

                      Silly me.
                      Trust me?
                      I'm an economist!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                        I guess I didn't realize that Flynn's (alledged) violation of the Logan Act should be blamed on the Obama Administration.

                        Silly me.
                        A) They monitored Trump staff?
                        B) They monitored a foreign embassy?
                        C) Both

                        Interesting, I can only imagine the reaction if there are rumors, allegations, let alone a confirmation of a wiretapping on an embassy. Oh, wait...

                        West European diplomats and experts of international relations declare that these wiretappings violate the Vienna Convention, which prohibits the wiretapping of diplomats.

                        Ernesto Bellelli, Italian ambassador to Skopje, said that last week, he learned about the wiretapping of diplomats by the leader of Macedonian opposition and according to him, if this is confirmed, then such act is a violation of international conventions.

                        “As diplomats, we have talked and we’re worried about this. It’s clear that the Vienna Convention prohibits the wiretapping of diplomats, even if this is ordered by courts. The telephone is the tool that we use to do our job and communicate with our countries, therefore even judges cannot order such thing”, declared the Italian ambassador.

                        Serious reactions about the possible wiretapping of embassies have been expressed by the European Union office in Skopje, British embassy and Swedish embassy.

                        The British embassy declared that it calls on the government and Macedonian institutions to investigate over the claims on abuse with authority, criminal activities and on the influence exerted by the Macedonian secret service on politics, media and courts.
                        http://www.balkaneu.com/diplomats-fy...bassies-react/
                        Last edited by Doktor; 26 Mar 17,, 13:28.
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                          I guess I didn't realize that Flynn's (alledged) violation of the Logan Act should be blamed on the Obama Administration.

                          Silly me.
                          Very silly. I'll ask you the same question, is the news pumped out for the last three months by you and your Democrat party and propaganda organs "Fake News", or has there been wholesale monitoring of Trump Inc?
                          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                          Leibniz

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                            A) They monitored Trump staff?
                            B) They monitored a foreign embassy?
                            C) Both

                            Interesting, I can only imagine the reaction if there are rumors, allegations, let alone a confirmation of a wiretapping on an embassy. Oh, wait...
                            Everyone asked has said there is zero evidence of Obama 'ordering' anything. If Bureas and Agencies are doing their legal duty there is nothing illegal in that. Flynn was clearly upto his neck in dirt; retrospectively registering his Turkish payments and suggesting some scheme to kidnap Gulen... A true beacon of moral depravity. If you are concerned that so many Trump associates have Moscow connections so am I and so, quite reasonably, may be the FBI but that does not mean they have been wiretapped or the "Obama spied on Trump"; he did not. The question is how deep in bed Trump is with Putin and anything else is smokescreen.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                              Everyone asked has said there is zero evidence of Obama 'ordering' anything. If Bureas and Agencies are doing their legal duty there is nothing illegal in that. Flynn was clearly upto his neck in dirt; retrospectively registering his Turkish payments and suggesting some scheme to kidnap Gulen... A true beacon of moral depravity. If you are concerned that so many Trump associates have Moscow connections so am I and so, quite reasonably, may be the FBI but that does not mean they have been wiretapped or the "Obama spied on Trump"; he did not. The question is how deep in bed Trump is with Putin and anything else is smokescreen.
                              No, the question is how these informations popped up. Was it legal or illegal. At least this is what the Westerners thought us so. There is a reason why illegally obtained "evidenece" is no evidence.

                              Afterwards, if everything was according to the law, they can proceed with the findings. No-brainer actually.

                              Now we have a situation where you say he did this, she did that, but they are all baseless claims since as far as I am concerned, all this can be made up, since there seems to be no legal procedure followed up. Yes, please do tell me how these technicalities were followed and that Trumpets are all in bed with Moscow.
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                              Comment


                              • what i find amusing here is the use of Alex-Jones like insinuation and conspiracy theory to justify a complete lack of evidence.
                                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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