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Thread: 17 Indian soldiers killed in Kashmir attack, worst in recent days

  1. #1
    Military Professional 667medic's Avatar
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    17 Indian soldiers killed in Kashmir attack, worst in recent days

    We know what the response is going to be, a few gung ho statements, media anger and then nothing as India will go back to its usual stance of so called high moral ground and hotha hai chaltha hai attitude and its back to business. I guess people who join the Indian Army must be in pretty desperate situation to be willing to be allowed to get slaughtered and not get avenged.... RIP to the soldiers, you died in vain for the cycle will repeat...

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    http://in.reuters.com/article/india-kashmir-idINKCN11O04F
    India blames Pakistan as Kashmir attack kills 17 soldiers

    India accused Pakistan of being behind Sunday's separatist attack on an army base near their disputed frontier that killed 17 soldiers, in one of the most deadly attacks in Kashmir in a quarter-century-old insurgency.

    Four commando-style gunmen, armed with AK-47 assault rifles and grenades, burst into the brigade headquarters in Uri at 5:30 a.m. (midnight GMT) and were killed after a three-hour gunfight, a senior Indian army officer said.

    The incident sharply increased tensions between the bitter, nuclear-armed rivals and will raise fears of a potential military escalation. Indian and Pakistani troops are in close proximity in many places along one of the world's most heavily militarised frontiers, and exchanges of fire are not uncommon.

    Lieutenant General Ranbir Singh told reporters in New Delhi that Sunday's attack bore the hallmarks of Pakistan-based militant group Jaish-e-Mohammed. Evidence gathered at the scene indicated the attackers were foreign and their equipment bore Pakistani markings, he added.

    "Our men are ready to give a befitting response," Singh said in response to a reporter's question. He did not elaborate.

    Earlier, Prime Minister Narendra Modi strongly condemned what he called the "cowardly terror attack".

    "I assure the nation that those behind this despicable attack will not go unpunished," Modi said in a series of Twitter posts.

    The raid came as tensions were already running high in India's only Muslim-majority region, which has faced more than two months of protests following the July 8 killing of the commander of another Pakistan-based separatist group.

    At least 78 civilians have been killed and thousands injured in street clashes with Indian security forces, who have been criticised by human rights groups for using excessive force.

    In an even stronger response, Home Minister Rajnath Singh tweeted: "Pakistan is a terrorist state and should be identified and isolated as such."

    Pakistan rejected allegations that it was involved. "India immediately puts blame on Pakistan without doing any investigation. We reject this," foreign ministry spokesman Nafees Zakaria told Reuters.

    CHOPPERS FLY IN, SMOKE RISES

    Most of the fatalities happened in a tent that caught fire, Singh, the Indian army's director general of military operations, told the briefing in New Delhi.

    He had informed his Pakistani counterpart of his findings, which linked the attack on Uri to a similar raid in January on an Indian Air Force base in Punjab that India also blames on Jaish-e-Mohammed.

    Reuters television footage showed helicopters flying in to evacuate the injured as an operation continued to secure the area. Smoke rose from the compound, set in mountainous terrain. The Defence Ministry earlier put the number of wounded at 35.

    Singh, the home minister, chaired a crisis meeting in New Delhi and cancelled trips to Russia and the United States. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and the army chief of staff headed to Uri, roughly halfway between Indian Kashmir's summer capital Srinagar and Islamabad, to investigate the attack.

    "There are definite and conclusive indications that the perpetrators of Uri attack were highly trained, heavily armed and specially equipped," Singh said in a series of strongly-worded tweets that were confirmed as genuine by his office.

    U.S. ambassador to India, Richard Verma, also "strongly condemned" the Uri attack, which comes weeks after Secretary of State John Kerry visited New Delhi.

    After that meeting Kerry urged Pakistan to do more to combat terrorism, while also announcing the resumption of trilateral talks with India and Afghanistan this month in New York, leaving Islamabad looking isolated.

    WORST BODY COUNT IN YEARS

    The military death toll was one of the worst it has suffered in a single incident during years of conflict in Indian-ruled Kashmir.

    Before this attack, 102 people had been killed in separatist attacks in India's part of the Himalayan region this year. Among them were 30 security personnel, 71 militants and one civilian, according to a tally by the New Delhi-based South Asia Terrorism Portal.

    Modi recently raised the stakes in the neighbours' decades-old feud by expressing support for separatists in Pakistan's resource-rich Baluchistan province.

    Pakistan has, meanwhile, called on the United Nations and the international community to investigate atrocities it alleges have been committed by Indian security forces in Kashmir.

    The UN is preparing to hold its annual general assembly in New York, where Kashmir is likely to come onto the agenda amid concerns that India's tough rhetoric could herald a military escalation between the old foes.

    Senior Indian journalist and commentator Shekhar Gupta said Pakistan would be "delusional" to think that India would not respond. "This India has moved on from old strategic restraint," he said.

    Relations between India and Pakistan have been on edge since the New-Year attack on the Pathankot air force base in Punjab, near the border with Pakistan, that killed seven uniformed men.

    India has blamed Pakistan-based militant groups for that and a string of other attacks - including one on Mumbai in 2008 that killed 166 people. After initial progress, an attempt to conduct a joint investigation into the air base attack lost momentum and a tentative peace dialogue has stalled.

    (Additional reporting by Rupam Jain in NEW DELHI and Suvashree Choudhury in MUMBAI, Mehreen Zahra-Malik in ISLAMABAD; Writing by Douglas Busvine; Editing by Robert Birsel and Alex Richardson)
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    how did the militants kill so many soldiers at a base? seems to me that there was a massive failure in security or intelligence here.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    how did the militants kill so many soldiers at a base? seems to me that there was a massive failure in security or intelligence here.
    Per my understanding, a rotation of battalions was going on - the outgoing battalion (Dogras) were properly protected, but the incoming battalion (Biharis) were camped in tents; most of the dead were from the incoming battalion whose tents caught fire.

    The terrorists got lucky, but luck is relative: the four attackers are dead, and the Pakistani unit that covered their infiltration now faces a p!sssed off Indian unit for next 2 years (a typical rotation on the LC).

    I don't see what can be done at a tactical level to address the vulnerability during the rotations; a unit is always vulnerable during this time - usually the outgoing one, if the attackers have the exit plan. Deterrence can only be applied at the operational level - with a clear warning that the division's artillery is covering the rotation and the enemy's static troops are also responsible for the smooth rotation of the units.

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    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
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    I can't see a way out of this vicious cycle. Not doing anything makes India a soft target but retaliating in any way would result in more blood being spilt...

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    Military Professional 667medic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    Per my understanding, a rotation of battalions was going on - the outgoing battalion (Dogras) were properly protected, but the incoming battalion (Biharis) were camped in tents; most of the dead were from the incoming battalion whose tents caught fire.

    The terrorists got lucky, but luck is relative: the four attackers are dead, and the Pakistani unit that covered their infiltration now faces a p!sssed off Indian unit for next 2 years (a typical rotation on the LC).

    I don't see what can be done at a tactical level to address the vulnerability during the rotations; a unit is always vulnerable during this time - usually the outgoing one, if the attackers have the exit plan. Deterrence can only be applied at the operational level - with a clear warning that the division's artillery is covering the rotation and the enemy's static troops are also responsible for the smooth rotation of the units.
    This is correct. According to one news report, the outgoing unit personnel were unarmed and were collecting fuel from fuel tanks. The infiltrating terrorists saw an opportunity and lobbed 15 grenades within 3 minutes which set fire to the fuel stores and resulted in the deaths from burn injuries. The terrorists then entered a barrack building where they encountered armed soldiers who fought back. The terrorists got lucky and I believe that even their Pak handlers would have been surprised by the casualty figures....
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    Military Professional 667medic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    I can't see a way out of this vicious cycle. Not doing anything makes India a soft target but retaliating in any way would result in more blood being spilt...
    I think that India will be better off spending a fraction of its military budget to bribe Pak generals either directly or indirectly.....
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    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    I think that India will be better off spending a fraction of its military budget to bribe Pak generals either directly or indirectly.....
    I have a feeling even that won't be enough. It seems to me there are factions within factions inside the PA/ISI apparatus with often their own agenda conflicting with other factions. Who to bribe? How many bases to cover?

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    how did the militants kill so many soldiers at a base? seems to me that there was a massive failure in security or intelligence here.
    The camp is in a valley surrounded by hills, where PA has observation posts on heights. One of those peculiar part of Indo-Pak LOC. It seems to be a freak luck where 14 out of 17 soldiers got trapped in the fire. Some reports say there was a lapse as well. The CO is going to have a tough time with his boss.

    These attacks do happen, but Pakistan keeps the water only at boiling point.

    This time they may have got more than they bargained..

    All civilian flights across the Pakistani side of Kashmir was suspended last night. Something happened...
    Last edited by n21; 21 Sep 16, at 18:49.

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    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
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    Can this be verified?

    Spl Forces Cross LoC; Kill 20 Terrorists

    At least 20 terrorists have been neutralised in a daring cross-LoC operation by the Indian Army in response to the Uri attack.

    Two units of the elite 2 Paras comprising 18-20 soldiers flew across the LoC in the Uri sector in military helicopters and reportedly carried out an operation that killed at least 20 suspected terrorists across three terror camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK).

    Total casualties, including those injured by terrorists, could be as high as 200, sources said.
    Military sources revealed to The Quint, which confirmed this information from two other independent sources, that the operation happened during the intervening hours of 20 September and 21 September.

    Indications that the Indian Special Forces struck across LoC came in the form of Pakistan declaring a no-fly zone over PoK on 20 September night.
    Pakistan’s national flag carrier Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) had cancelled flights to northern Pakistani cities, including to Gilgit and Skardu in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, due to “air space restrictions”.

    PIA called off flights to Gilgit and Skardu in Gilgit-Baltistan region in Pakistan- occupied-Kashmir (PoK) and Chitral in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province.

    PIA spokesperson Danyal Gilani had tweeted this information late Tuesday evening.

    Pakistan’s Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif held a telephonic conversation with Pakistan’s powerful army chief General Raheel Sharif on Tuesday night ahead of his speech at the
    UN in which he is expected to raise the Kashmir issue. It is understood that they are likely to have discussed this cross-border raid as well.

    Speaking at an event earlier today, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the Uri attack may need a “knee-jerk” reaction.
    “Won’t go into details of what India can do, but sometimes knee-jerk reaction is required,” he said.

    Hours after the attack on Sunday by four terrorists that led to the deaths of 18 Indian soldiers, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had tweeted that those behind the act “would not go unpunished”.

    India has blamed the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed terrorist outfit for the early morning attacks.

    A statement issued by the Ministry of External Affairs listed the items recovered from the terrorists, including GPS, with coordinates that indicate the point and time of infiltration across the LoC and the subsequent route to the terror attack site; grenades with Pakistani markings; communication matrix sheets; communication equipment; and other items made in Pakistan, including food, medicines and clothes.

    Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar had summoned Pakistani High Commissioner Abdul Basit on Wednesday and conveyed India’s demand for action by Pakistan to crack down on the terror infrastructure in its territory.
    EDIT: It was a whole load of BS!
    Last edited by DarthSiddius; 22 Sep 16, at 19:27.

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    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    We need to do what we did in 2002, after the Kaluchak massacre
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    how did the militants kill so many soldiers at a base? seems to me that there was a massive failure in security or intelligence here.
    This is the first question to ask.

    The defense minister has acknowledged that lapses were made and need to be addressed.

    http://www.firstpost.com/india/uri-a...s-3014496.html

    Uri was more vulnerable than others.

    You guys went through this in Afghanistan, we will have to learn too.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Sep 16, at 04:29.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    I think that India will be better off spending a fraction of its military budget to bribe Pak generals either directly or indirectly.....
    So we can add to what the americans give ?

    Why do we object every time, because it legitimises the PA. You can't be serious.

    I can see this with domestic terrorists, outspending their sponsors. Heard the NSA before he became NSA mention that in a talk. Worth a listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    I can't see a way out of this vicious cycle. Not doing anything makes India a soft target but retaliating in any way would result in more blood being spilt...
    It shifts. Recall 2005 - 2008 with bombs going off every 3 months somewhere. Then it all somehow stops after 26/11. Now the target is the military and not civvies. If it continues it will drive a wedge between the army & the politicians. Reduce the morale. All tactical objectives for the PA. They also get to show what a staunch ally they are of those disaffected and pissed off with the IA in Kashmir. They want to keep the place on a boil. Its an internal problem maybe we need to address it, then they will have a harder time. In any case the Paks are insignficant these days over there. The state govt people chose isn't delivering. they get upset the IA gets drawn in.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Sep 16, at 04:47.

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    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It shifts. Recall 2005 - 2008 with bombs going off every 3 months somewhere. Then it all somehow stops after 26/11. Now the target is the military and not civvies. If it continues it will drive a wedge between the army & the politicians. Reduce the morale. All tactical objectives for the PA. They also get to show what a staunch ally they are of those disaffected and pissed off with the IA in Kashmir. They want to keep the place on a boil. Its an internal problem maybe we need to address it, then they will have a harder time. In any case the Paks are insignficant these days over there. The state govt people chose isn't delivering. they get upset the IA gets drawn in.
    And the cycle repeats...

    We need a radical change in policy first, tit-for-tat exchanges at the UN and summit boycotts, notwithstanding. What the hell does isolating Pakistan internationally even mean? GoI needs to come down from the fantasy land they are currently living in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    Can this be verified?


    EDIT: It was a whole load of BS!
    It had happened, and it has happened again.

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    DE,

    You guys went through this in Afghanistan, we will have to learn too.
    but how long have you guys been duking it out with Pakistan over Kashmir? I understand no base can be 100% secure, but this seems really bad.

    hope some heads will roll over this, just like what happened after the 2012 Camp Bastion attack in Afghanistan.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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