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Thread: 2016 Turkish Coup Attempt

  1. #301
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    All this is one or another form of Luciferiansim, the worshiping of the right and the freedom of that right.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Actually while Marx and Engels were Hegelians in their youth, they later rejected Hegel's idealism in constructing their concepts, instead picking and evolving Feuerbach's materialistic theorems. Marx still credits Hegel in Capital given that this was a continuous evolvement with Hegel at the source; however he also stated that Hegel's dialectics needed to be "turned upside down" to discover the kernel of truth behind their mysticism.
    I do not disagree, long time since I read Das Kapital or Mein Kampf so I will curtsy to your better knowledge on this, political philosophy was never my study... I would almost say I do not believe in such a thing and that all political 'ideology' is dangerous; practical Hegelianism is what both were. My point is that neither derived intellectually from logical positivism.

  3. #303
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do not disagree, long time since I read Das Kapital or Mein Kampf so I will curtsy to your better knowledge on this, political philosophy was never my study... I would almost say I do not believe in such a thing and that all political 'ideology' is dangerous; practical Hegelianism is what both were. My point is that neither derived intellectually from logical positivism.
    You are missing the point Snapper. If the whole world was on the Western level of perception, ideologies wouldn't be a problem. You could argue and debate and make actions and moves as long and much as you want. But the fact that it isn't creates a totally different situation. It would be like you debating the meaning of life with your friend in the woods and you are both totally engaged that you forgot to notice that you've been surrounded with the pack of hungry wolves and all your intellectual debate won't mean a thing when they start eating you alive. In military terms, what I am trying to say is that the West has lost situational awareness.

    We (in the Balkans and especially in Serbia) are faced with the possibility of Erdogan sending 3 million military aged men, that all belong to the "culture" that enslaved us for 500 years and with whom we have very well recollections what it can do. To make matters worse, it doesn't hide its goals which were the same as they were 500 years ago.

    As much as I would like to go into the depths of intellectual and philosophical debates I can't because I see this as a more "practical" issue that requires different type of science and thinking. More along lines of applied physics, mathematics and chemistry.
    Last edited by Versus; 19 Mar 17, at 11:45.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    You are missing the point Snapper. If the whole world was on the Western level of perception, ideologies wouldn't be a problem. You could argue and debate and make actions and moves as long and much as you want. But the fact that it isn't creates a totally different situation. It would be like you debating the meaning of life with your friend in the woods and you are both totally engaged that you forgot to notice that you've been surrounded with the pack of hungry wolves and all your intellectual debate won't mean a thing when they start eating you alive. In military terms, what I am trying to say is that the West has lost situational awareness.

    We (in the Balkans and especially in Serbia) are faced with the possibility of Erdogan sending 3 million military aged men, that all belong to the "culture" that enslaved us for 500 years and with whom we have very well recollections what it can do. To make matters worse, it doesn't hide its goals which were the same as they were 500 years ago.

    As much as I would like to go into the depths of intellectual and philosophical debates I can't because I see this as a more "practical" issue that requires different type of science and thinking. More along lines of applied physics, mathematics and chemistry.

    First you started the 'intellectual and philosophical debate' by wrongly mentioning logical positivism as an intellectual underpinning to Fascism and Communism - which are both 'Western' theories. To a wolf no intellectualism matters; it is driven by hunger and does not mind what flag or ideology it marches under; Tukhachevsky who's 'Red' Muscovite troops moved to restore Muscovite control over Ukraine, Belarus and Poland in 1919-20 was the Lieutenant in the Tsarist Imperial Guard during WW1. Ideologies for a wolf are another excuse and another face.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    First you started the 'intellectual and philosophical debate' by wrongly mentioning logical positivism as an intellectual underpinning to Fascism and Communism - which are both 'Western' theories. To a wolf no intellectualism matters; it is driven by hunger and does not mind what flag or ideology it marches under; Tukhachevsky who's 'Red' Muscovite troops moved to restore Muscovite control over Ukraine, Belarus and Poland in 1919-20 was the Lieutenant in the Tsarist Imperial Guard during WW1. Ideologies for a wolf are another excuse and another face.
    But intellectual positivism created a notion that "something could be done" about the problems, in hope of achieving better tomorrow. Either trough elimination of underlings or rebuilding the Empire of old (like in a good olden days). Wolf is not driven by hunger, yet, as any canine, it gorges in the act of killing, in loves to kill. Seen that in countless cats I had to bury, they were not eaten just mangled up by doggy jaws.

  6. #306
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    Logical positivism, which you mentioned as being the intellectual basis for these extremist ideologies was a philosophical theory of meaning; nothing more. It's roots lay more in the British empiricist tradition of Locke and Hume that also gave birth to US Declaration of Independence not Bolshevism or Nazism which derive more fully from Hegelian theory. You were just wrong.

    Nor am I saying that either Hitler or Stalin ever read Hegel's Theory of the State; almost certainly neither did and the truth is more likely neither cared; to would be autocrats laws, principles, theories do not matter; if you find a rule, theory or precedent useful for a specific situation great. If not never mind and proceed as you wish anyway. It is the difference between the civilised respect of the rule of law as a basis for freedom and a form of hero worship for some 'Great Leader' where no matter what laws may in theory be written down any law is subject to the whim of the ruling clique surrounding the Great Leader.

  7. #307
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    snapper,

    Ideologies for a wolf are another excuse and another face.
    that is USUALLY true but the real monsters come from the true believers. it explains why why Hitler died with a ring of enemies closing in and why Stalin died (probably) peacefully in bed.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    that is USUALLY true but the real monsters come from the true believers. it explains why why Hitler died with a ring of enemies closing in and why Stalin died (probably) peacefully in bed.
    Our areas of agreement are becoming embarrassing! As I said above "I would almost say I do not believe in such a thing and that all political 'ideology' is dangerous". The only safe form of political 'ideology' is that the views of others are valid and that "I am not always right".

    Regarding Stalin he died of a stroke and was found on the floor having released some inner content. According to the reports I have read his aides knocked twice on his door and getting no reply did not dare to enter until a more senior Official arrived with business that needed his attention; it is possible therefore that if his most immediate aides had not been so petrified and entered on the first occasion they may have been able to help him. Karma I suppose.
    Last edited by snapper; 20 Mar 17, at 19:02.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Regarding Stalin he died of a stroke and was found on the floor having released some inner content. According to the reports I have read his aides knocked twice on his door and getting no reply did not dare to enter until a more senior Official arrived with business that needed his attention; it is possible therefore that if his most immediate aides had not been so petrified and entered on the first occasion they may have been able to help him. Karma I suppose.
    Does this haunt you Snapper?
    Last edited by Toby; 21 Mar 17, at 00:53.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Does this haunt you Snapper?
    Not at all; Sic semper tyrannis! I do however ascribe to the Bukovsky theory (Vladimir Bukovsky being an old Soviet era dissident) that a public trial and 'bearing all' of the atrocities of the shootings, the Holodomor, the gulags, the 'disappearances' and other forms of enslavement and murder was required to seal the Soviet grave and to bring some justice to it's millions of victims. Bukovsky argues that the real rulers of any dictatorial state are it's secret police; the Gestapo and SS in Nazi Germany and the Cheka/NKVD/KGB/FSB in Muscovy; to do away with the regime their crimes must be exposed and 'laid bare'. In the Nazi case this was done at Nuremberg, the networks were undone and disgraced. When the Soviet regime imploded - as a former US Ambassador to Moscow (McFaul) has said "This new era crept up on us, because we did not fully win the Cold War"; and so the secret police state remained in place and it''s return was always possible if not likely; it is no accident that Putin is a former KGB man. We are paying now for not winning more completely and exposing the rotten hypocrisy and many atrocities of the Chekists in their red clothing; a change of image means nothing to these people. As Bukovsky said in 2002 "Having failed to finish off conclusively the communist system, we are now in danger of integrating the resulting monster into our world. It may not be called communism anymore, but it retained many of its dangerous characteristics… Until the Nuremberg-style tribunal passes its judgement on all the crimes committed by communism, it is not dead and the war is not over." More victims and still no justice for the countless earlier ones... This time we must kill it dead.

  11. #311
    Senior Contributor Amled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    ... This time we must kill it dead.

    Agree, wholeheartedly.
    Yet who or what is going to bell the cat?
    When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amled View Post
    Agree, wholeheartedly.
    Yet who or what is going to bell the cat?
    It is not an individuals job but a collective effort. When the times comes we will find prosecutors enough in Muscovy as well as witnesses but first we must win the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Not at all; Sic semper tyrannis! I do however ascribe to the Bukovsky theory (Vladimir Bukovsky being an old Soviet era dissident) that a public trial and 'bearing all' of the atrocities of the shootings, the Holodomor, the gulags, the 'disappearances' and other forms of enslavement and murder was required to seal the Soviet grave and to bring some justice to it's millions of victims. Bukovsky argues that the real rulers of any dictatorial state are it's secret police; the Gestapo and SS in Nazi Germany and the Cheka/NKVD/KGB/FSB in Muscovy; to do away with the regime their crimes must be exposed and 'laid bare'. In the Nazi case this was done at Nuremberg, the networks were undone and disgraced. When the Soviet regime imploded - as a former US Ambassador to Moscow (McFaul) has said "This new era crept up on us, because we did not fully win the Cold War"; and so the secret police state remained in place and it''s return was always possible if not likely; it is no accident that Putin is a former KGB man. We are paying now for not winning more completely and exposing the rotten hypocrisy and many atrocities of the Chekists in their red clothing; a change of image means nothing to these people. As Bukovsky said in 2002 "Having failed to finish off conclusively the communist system, we are now in danger of integrating the resulting monster into our world. It may not be called communism anymore, but it retained many of its dangerous characteristics… Until the Nuremberg-style tribunal passes its judgement on all the crimes committed by communism, it is not dead and the war is not over." More victims and still no justice for the countless earlier ones... This time we must kill it dead.
    We? Kill? Whom? You can't kill them abroad, yet alone at home.

    But, you can always bar them from Eurovision. What a load of crap.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    We? Kill? Whom? You can't kill them abroad, yet alone at home.
    We have killed plenty of them in Ukraine as well sadly as their unwitting stooges. They kill their own too so that is not quite accurate. I take your point though and would say that the brittle nature of an autocracy - especially combined with some 'Great Leader' myth has fatal drawbacks if defeats are encountered; the 'Great Leader' cannot be seen to fail. If he does... well he has no clothes. The lie becomes clear. Those who oppose the autocracy within and without have a chance to change the system. Those thousands who demonstrated in Moscow and elsewhere in 2011 are not dead - though some are still in prison. The families of those who have died in 'training accidents' in Ukraine and whatever BS they tell them about those who have died in Syria (and many have not had the bodies returned) are not happy - remember they had to shut down the Soldiers Mothers group? The robbed, the abused, they all exist but remain silent for fear at present. Once the spell of infallibility is broken (and it already is at senior levels) for all to see the Great Leader is done for.

    I always said it is better for Ukrainian forces to capture rather than kill Muscovites; I never had any desire to kill them anyway as there is a Muscovite branch of my family and one of our cousins living in our home in Ukraine now. The answer is to defeat them and show the captive soldiers to Muscovite people. Let them write letters, send emails or phone home since public display of POWs is arguably illegal. Treat them well etc... We are not 'fascists' or even anti Muscovite by nature, merely by force since they have invaded Ukraine. We wish the same liberties for them that we wish for us; our Government is still corrupt and theirs is worse. We have common cause. We got rid of our wannabe dictator so can you... That of course Putin understood and why he invaded Ukraine; the dreaded 'colour revolution' at home and that is his still key weakness should he be seen to clearly fail.

  15. #315
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    I am gorging on Erdogan's speeches, the man amazes me with every new one...Gotta get those UCAV's rolling, man is true inspiration.Just kidding, but he does makes me think strange thoughts...Hewhehe.
    Last edited by Versus; 22 Mar 17, at 17:24.

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