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Thread: Kashmir unrest 2016

  1. #61
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    Yes I meant Valley when I said 97% Muslim majority in Kashmir and not Jammu/Leh/Ladakh.From a Sufi land it's has become a Sunni radicals paradise including the Grand Mufti who is openly supporting terrorism and accepting money from Pakistan.Saudis are funding terror all over India and other parts of the world using petro $$$.

    So when we talk about ISPR/ISI then it's similar to Chinese 50-cent party and perhaps they copied the Chinese model of FALSE nationalistic propaganda to brainwash their own people.Now ISPR chose very careful keywords to create a "news" which is often far from reality and sometime just false.Many times the source leads to various Pakistani sites which has the same owners.So the trick is to copy the same false news and post it on as many sources as possible including the famous Pakistani forums.The same gets into SEO and gives a first impression that it might be true but often its not.But it takes a bit of time to find but the truth but lot of the damage is done already since no one has time to authenticate.

    Recently many such news came out to be false, for example Pakistan getting Su-35(Russia openly rebuked Pakistan for that) and recently some so called "gigantic" Pakistani invention called Magneto-Hydro-Tropism which turned out to be ambiguous/useless/fake.Often they create such news to divert attention from the real issues.Now we all know that Pak Army would never want a peaceful Kashmir since Pak Army has no way to create a boogyman of India and show to it's people that they are the real savior of Pakistan.The Democracy tried to have better relations with India but whenever it happened the Army intervened and either started terrorism to derail the peace process or simply KILLED the Democracy.

    Recently MODI went to a surprise visit(without any visa) to Pakistan as invited by Nawaz but just after that our Pathankot airforce base got attacked.This is NOT a coincidence.in late 90's when Vajpayee tried to have a peace process with Nawaz the Pak Army started another was in Kargil.

    Till OBL was killed the world didn't take much notice of Pakistan but OBL exposed Pakistan fully.Now everyone is getting sick and tired of Pakistan and it's State Sponsored Terrorism including India,Iran,Afghanistan,US and even China has blamed Pakistan for terrorism on their soil.

  2. #62
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    Gentlemen,

    What's the point? You're not going to convince the likes of Barangi that you're right.

    And NATO is quite aware of Pakistan's double dealings. We've seen it first hand.
    Chimo

  3. #63
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    Batista,

    Nationalistic jingoism was upped by Hitler too in Germany, you know what happened. Most of what Pak Army & CCP is, has got to do with control. Consolidation of power, and that makes them very rich. How many Pak generals have been killed in Kashmir, they so much want? It's the low level tangos. And effective propaganda is one way to achieve total authority over the masses. How many Paks do you think knows about the 1948 UN resolutions on Kashmir? Not much, and that those knows either choose to ignore it, or are brainwashed to such an extent, they think is it a RAW+MOSSAD+CIA plot to weaken Pakistan and simply refuse to believe it. Why do Pak keeps making noises about using tactical nukes? So that the money keeps flowing from Washington. Terrorism is business, I have argued this with DE in some thread, read it when you have the time.

    Modi pre-election, is not what Modi is now. He knows war is the last option, which is why he's getting the clogged system cleaned up, visiting countries for FDI and making laws easy. At the same time, India is arming up with various defense procurement. Is terrorism affecting other states beyond Kashmir? Nope, it's very little and inconsequential. Let the paid Kashmiris fight, let the rot get deeper, and the IA would clean it up. No sympathy for terrorists, so they can burn themselves, or get in the line of fire. Paks come here to sympathize, the same Paks in pakdef speaks a different language. Nobody gives a shit. One more thing, propaganda warfare is an effective tool, why the GoI has not been using it is not clear. A special cell needs to be created under the Cabinet Secretariat, and full spectrum propaganda war needs to be initiated.

    Lastly, it was not until OBL was killed that the west knew or cared. Pakistan, way back in 1993 was almost in the glorified hall of shame of States supporting terrorism because of it's Jihadi interference in Kashmir. The West knew all along, but they had no beef in it. Kashmir was a mess they didn't want to get in. And it was after 9/11, that the US recognized that they can get hit too, and it hurts. US policies prior to 9/11 have IMV been short term, misguided and sometimes rather obnoxious, but that's the nature of geo-strategic politics. The fun thing is Pakistan isolating itself to such an extent, they have no credibility left.
    Last edited by Oracle; 21 Jul 16, at 12:09.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Gentlemen,

    What's the point? You're not going to convince the likes of Barangi that you're right.

    And NATO is quite aware of Pakistan's double dealings. We've seen it first hand.
    You're right. To actually solve the Kashmir problem, India has to solve the Pak problem, which in turn would need India to solve the China problem.
    Last edited by Oracle; 21 Jul 16, at 12:10.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Gentlemen,

    What's the point? You're not going to convince the likes of Barangi that you're right.

    And NATO is quite aware of Pakistan's double dealings. We've seen it first hand.
    He is brainwashed enough by their Army/Radicals not to accept the reality.Pakistan did a SELF GOAL by declaring Terrorist Burhan as a martyr and 19 July as black day.So Pakistan has accepted that they officially support terrorism.

    People like barangi run around on forums and spread false and factless propaganda.It's just good to expose and shame people like him on international platform.This way more and more people can see their ugly face.Recently a Pakistani even attacked the Prophet's Mosque in Saudi Arabia, this has surprised a lot of people.

    He has been banned already which is not unexpected at all.Today Pakistan as a country is ignored/sidelined internationally like never before due to their state sponsored Terrorism.

    Recently even Turkey has asked Pakistan to shun institutions run by Gulen since as per Turkey Gulen was behind the recent Coup in Turkey.
    Last edited by Batista; 23 Jul 16, at 22:09.

  6. #66
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    Pakistan inciting our kids to take up arms: Mehbooba Mufti

    This is what Kashmirs' present Chief Minister has to say.

  7. #67
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    Stop being defensive about Kashmir

    By Vikram Sood

    Well-known facts are sometimes forgotten, conveniently overlooked or twisted to suit a particular narrative. So, it is necessary to restate some facts and bring the discourse back on rails.

    Kashmir, all of it, belongs to India and it will stay like that. We have a document affirming the status of Kashmir and Pakistan has never observed the UNSC resolutions of April 1948 to solve the issue. In any case, Jammu and Kashmir is no longer listed by the UN as a dispute.

    Pakistan has been intruding in various ways virtually from the day it became independent. Over time, this has become more vicious and blatant. We have remained inadequately reactive, offering peace initiatives that were always seen as signs of weakness by the Deep State.

    Consequently, we have in Kashmir an externally sponsored terrorism under a nuclear umbrella seeking annexation of Kashmir. It is neither a freedom struggle nor a human rights story. We should not feel guilty about treating terrorism for what it is. We seem to forget that a terrorist attack by stealth does not spare civilians, women and children included.

    The present situation has not been brought about by our security forces or by our intelligence agencies. It is the result of repeated political opportunism and ineptitude, which has followed up on a series of mistakes and promises not kept.

    Terrorism gets prolonged when it has multilayered external state support accompanied by a comfortable but mistaken narrative in the targeted country that creates sympathy. This narrative is provided by a mixture of political opportunism, woollyheaded opinion makers and an irresponsible media.

    The armed forces are doing a great job in handling a situation that is not of their making. They are trained to fight the external enemy, not to shoot at malcontents within the country.

    Powers be with the forces

    If we need to use them in this manner, then they must be covered by Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (Afspa), with adequate means to take on a new kind of enemy. In the process, there will be mistakes and misjudgements, even excesses. That is unfortunate. But we have to deal with this.

    We trivialise the supreme sacrifices of these men and women, along with their families, when we lionise terrorists. We can recall the name of the dead terrorist, but can we recall one name among the 18 CRPF men who died in Kashmir and Bihar in the last one month? This is what happens when we call them ‘youth leaders’, ‘national leaders’ and run to their families for human interest stories. We provide the oxygen to terrorists and their bloody trade.

    Burhan Wani was no misguided young man. He was a terrorist with an agenda. He belonged to a terrorist organisation created by the Pakistanis, whose leader Syed Salahuddin lives in Pakistan. Salahuddin is unable to explain how his son was given admission to study in J&K and none of his other sons has followed their father’s footsteps.

    This organisation, Hizbul Mujahideen (HM), was responsible for the murder of Mirwaiz Muhammad Farooq. But his son, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, never found the courage or integrity of leadership to name the assassins. And this ‘moderate leader’ had warned Ahmediyas last year that they should stay out of Kashmir.

    The HM has deep links with the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Jaish-e-Mohammed. Wani’s dream was to unfurl the flag of Islam at Delhi’s Red Fort through a holy war. How many Indians are prepared to make any compromise on this and how many consider this to be a human rights issue?

    Unable to succeed through terrorism, Pakistan has now begun to seek radicalisation of Kashmir. One sees a mushrooming of Salafi madrasas undoubtedly funded by Saudi money. There is enough traction between the radicals of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to help this. This is going to be our next security challenge.

    We must stop deluding ourselves that Pakistan will change its tactics if we make the right gestures (although no one defines what these gestures might be). It has pushed itself into this blind alley where any pact with India on Kashmir will be seen as a defeat. So, jihad is the only kind of war that Pakistan will fight with India no matter what the extent of blowback.

    The Valley became an issue just short of the recent elections in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, where it seems neither India nor J&K were electoral issues. Pakistan might have a new army chief in September and keeping Kashmir on the front burner will have an impact on the fortunes of the present incumbent when his term ends.

    No yielding on terror firma

    Finally, any suggestion for talks with Pakistan while terror continues legitimises Pakistani terrorist activity in India. This is often seen as favouring the illegitimate Pakistani position, especially when the situation flares up. After nearly 70 years, we should treat Kashmir without special laws and its never-ending dispensations.

    It is time we developed our own response that makes Pakistan’s rulers pay a price they cannot afford. Since we have inalienable rights to Kashmir, we should stop being defensive about this and making magnanimity a foreign policy virtue.

    The writer is former chief of R&AW

  8. #68
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    Cooling down Kashmir

    But thoughtful Indians must ask why their country should care. Surely, if India considers Kashmiris to be its citizens then it must treat them as such, not as traitors deserving bullets. Else it should hand Kashmir over to Kashmiris or Pakistan.
    So, the speech that liberal Indians make about liberal Pakistanis wanting peace, is nought(?). Even the most liberal across the border hides the agenda of annexing Kashmir by Jihad, and romanticizes AK-47 wielding Jihadis. Grow a pair, GoI. Build a warehouse, develop bots and let them scour the internet for these kind of articles. Put them in a negative list. Then, please stop issuing visas to them, there's no reason why they should earn even a single paisa from India.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Cooling down Kashmir



    So, the speech that liberal Indians make about liberal Pakistanis wanting peace, is nought(?). Even the most liberal across the border hides the agenda of annexing Kashmir by Jihad, and romanticizes AK-47 wielding Jihadis. Grow a pair, GoI. Build a warehouse, develop bots and let them scour the internet for these kind of articles. Put them in a negative list. Then, please stop issuing visas to them, there's no reason why they should earn even a single paisa from India.
    I am not a fan of Arundathi Roy but she said something sensible about Kashmir some time ago. She said that rather than Kashmir becoming free from India, it is India that should be free from Kashmir. I agree with the message, just the caveat that it should be the Kashmir valley. If India is not able/willing to do a Tibet on Kashmir, then what's the point of continuing status quo. GOI frowns on local secessionist activities and yet allows a "martyr's cemetery" to exist, to constantly remind people of their rebellion. I get it that no politician wants to take the decision that can lead to political suicide but status quo is not the solution....
    Seek Save Serve Medic

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    I am not a fan of Arundathi Roy but she said something sensible about Kashmir some time ago. She said that rather than Kashmir becoming free from India, it is India that should be free from Kashmir. I agree with the message, just the caveat that it should be the Kashmir valley.
    That would be both political and geo-strategic suicide.
    Even if that comes to be, China would be at our throats next demanding Arunachal Pradesh. Kashmir is not the answer, Kashmir is the question. And right now, India does not have the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    If India is not able/willing to do a Tibet on Kashmir, then what's the point of continuing status quo.
    Oh, trust me we can. We can do a Tibet on Tibet itself. But, it suits us just fine. There are important things for the Government to attend to, than silly Pak double games and crazy mullah theories. What has been the achievement of the Pak Army other than sending Jihadi merceneries who get shot at the border? Nothing. From time to time, the paid agents in Kashmir stir up trouble, than it fizzles out.

    It suits us fine, as the militancy has been confined to that region. Let it burn, then we'd pour some water on it, and let it simmer. The rest of India is moving forward, while Pakistan is not. And Kashmir is not just PoK, it is Aksai Chin & Shaksgam valley included. Get my point? Post # 64.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    GOI frowns on local secessionist activities and yet allows a "martyr's cemetery" to exist, to constantly remind people of their rebellion. I get it that no politician wants to take the decision that can lead to political suicide but status quo is not the solution....
    That is one point I agree. Jihadis should be wrapped in pork fat, and cremated, Hindu style. Only homos in the afterlife for them then.

    Right now, status quo is the only best solution, till we develop enough financially and militarily. You have to understand that India is still a developing country. US is arming us against China, and if Pakistan continues to be, what it is now, after 10-15 years it would be a walkover. Though from time to time I develop a fetish for pounding the Pak posts and assets with heavy artillery, everytime they start a gunfire or a terrorist sneaks in.

    The issue for India right now is not Pakistan, it is China, always has been. The Pakistanis derive ideas from Chinas' approval. The present disposition at New Delhi has been trying to unclog the system, build infrastructure, eliminate redundant laws and many other things. Membership of MTCR, NSG and of other world forums. India is moving ahead, Kashmir has not stopped us, it will not in the future. But there is ample chance of Balochistan slipping away from Paks hands, as has Bangladesh. Keep watching this space.
    Last edited by Oracle; 01 Aug 16, at 07:07.

  11. #71
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    That would be both political and geo-strategic suicide.
    Even if that comes to be, China would be at our throats next demanding Arunachal Pradesh. Kashmir is not the answer, Kashmir is the question. And right now, India does not have the answer.
    I am sorry to say this but what you say sounds more like Pak chest thumping rather than practical assessment and solutions. China is a player because Paks are willing and eager to be their "bitch". The Colonel has often said that China will fight India until the last Pak is alive. BTW China has never looked at India as a threat, this is only because they look at India with contempt.

    No one is rebelling in Arunachal Pradesh and waving the PRC flag, so this is hardly a relevant comparison. Moreover, there are constitutional restrictions barring India from even ceding an inch of AP territory. If something like Article 371 can't be repealed, how do you imagine that the constitution can be changed to appease China.



    Oh, trust me we can. We can do a Tibet on Tibet itself. But, it suits us just fine. There are important things for the Government to attend to, than silly Pak double games and crazy mullah theories. What has been the achievement of the Pak Army other than sending Jihadi merceneries who get shot at the border? Nothing. From time to time, the paid agents in Kashmir stir up trouble, than it fizzles out.
    I do understand that India is capable of putting the rebels to their place. This is the same India that used aerial bombardment against the Mizo rebels in the 1960's. Contrast this with today's India which even prohibits heli ops in Kashmir or against the naxalites. Ofcourse the Nagas were regarded as untermenschen because they ate dogs and were either animist or christian. The Kashmiri rebels OTOH are Muslim and the politicians don't want to risk communal tension.


    It suits us fine, as the militancy has been confined to that region. Let it burn, then we'd pour some water on it, and let it simmer. The rest of India is moving forward, while Pakistan is not. And Kashmir is not just PoK, it is Aksai Chin & Shaksgam valley included. Get my point? Post # 64.
    India wants to be great and getting repeatedly fucked in the ass by what you call a failed state is not a sign of greatness and you won't get any respect. China earned the respect of her enemies from the blood spilled by her soldiers in Korea, Soviets earned the respect of the world from the seemingly limitless ability of her people and soldiers to endure hardship in order to defeat Hitler.


    That is one point I agree. Jihadis should be wrapped in pork fat, and cremated, Hindu style. Only homos in the afterlife for them then.
    Sure, in the past I too used to have a wet dream about having sex with Nicole Kidman....

    Right now, status quo is the only best solution, till we develop enough financially and militarily. You have to understand that India is still a developing country. US is arming us against China, and if Pakistan continues to be, what it is now, after 10-15 years it would be a walkover. Though from time to time I develop a fetish for pounding the Pak posts and assets with heavy artillery, everytime they start a gunfire or a terrorist sneaks in.
    India is not going anywhere at her current pace of growth and the divergent interests of her diverse population. Pakistan is your enemy and yet you all fall over each other to host Pak entertainers. You have one faction which wants to build a temple in a disputed area, which is guaranteed to light a powder keg and you also have pseudo-seculars and leftys who see nothing wrong with terrorists attacking your own soldiers. What can be more dysfunctional.

    The issue for India right now is not Pakistan, it is China, always has been. The Pakistanis derive ideas from Chinas' approval. The present disposition at New Delhi has been trying to unclog the system, build infrastructure, eliminate redundant laws and many other things. Membership of MTCR, NSG and of other world forums. India is moving ahead, Kashmir has not stopped us, it will not in the future. But there is ample chance of Balochistan slipping away from Paks hands, as has Bangladesh. Keep watching this space.
    Balochistan is in Pak backyard and they won't mind unleashing a river of blood. The world will ignore it because it is a Muslim on Muslim conflict. As I said earlier, for real or imaginary reasons, Paks want to be China's bitch. As long as they feel that way, they will continue to make reckless actions which will result in more Indians dying. In the meantime, Indians will continue to make empty threats and life goes on. Sab chalta hai....
    Last edited by 667medic; 01 Aug 16, at 08:05.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    I am sorry to say this but what you say sounds more like Pak chest thumping rather than practical assessment and solutions. China is a player because Paks are willing and eager to be their "bitch". The Colonel has often said that China will fight India until the last Pak is alive. BTW China has never looked at India as a threat, this is only because they look at India with contempt.
    China is a player because internal unrest keeps India from reaching its true potential. Chinese footprints are there right from the North-East to Kashmir and even to the Naxals IIRC.

    Actually, it was Bharat Verma who said that - Will China fight India to the last Pakistani? in his book Fault Lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    No one is rebelling in Arunachal Pradesh and waving the PRC flag, so this is hardly a relevant comparison. Moreover, there are constitutional restrictions barring India from even ceding an inch of AP territory. If something like Article 371 can't be repealed, how do you imagine that the constitution can be changed to appease China.
    How many are waving the Chinese flag in the SCS? How many were waving the Chinese flag in Tibet? The Government doesn't have majority in both houses and cannot pass reforms and you expect them to repeal Article 370 (not 371)? What is it, a circus? The show gets over by the hour? Even if there is a majority it would need someone with brass balls to repeal Art-370. I would wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    I do understand that India is capable of putting the rebels to their place. This is the same India that used aerial bombardment against the Mizo rebels in the 1960's. Contrast this with today's India which even prohibits heli ops in Kashmir or against the naxalites. Ofcourse the Nagas were regarded as untermenschen because they ate dogs and were either animist or christian.
    The bombardment of the MNF assets and locations were a mistake, but it had to be done. I don't lose sleep over it. The Indian Army back then was not much experienced in COIN ops/guerrilla warfare in mountainous terrains, which is what let to the setting up of CIJWS. When did the IAF bomb the Nagas? COIN ops against the Naga rebels are conducted mostly by the para-military and sometimes by the special forces. What is the connection of Nagas being Christian in all of these?

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    The Kashmiri rebels OTOH are Muslim and the politicians don't want to risk communal tension.
    Mostly correct. But how long? I don't know the answer, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    India wants to be great and getting repeatedly fucked in the ass by what you call a failed state is not a sign of greatness and you won't get any respect. China earned the respect of her enemies from the blood spilled by her soldiers in Korea, Soviets earned the respect of the world from the seemingly limitless ability of her people and soldiers to endure hardship in order to defeat Hitler.
    India earned it much before. WWI. And Indians are still spilling blood to defend the territorial integrity of the country. India might not be doing great, but it is doing just about okay. American did not become great because of it's military power, it became great because of it's economic clout, and it's soft power creeping inside every other house in every part of this world in the form of Hollywood, MTV, coca-cola and porn. Military might is secondary to economic might. India is working in getting her economy right. It takes time.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    Sure, in the past I too used to have a wet dream about having sex with Nicole Kidman....
    Anyway you see it, is trouble. What happened? Some protests, which has fizzled out. That idiot is now lying 6 feet under.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    India is not going anywhere at her current pace of growth and the divergent interests of her diverse population. Pakistan is your enemy and yet you all fall over each other to host Pak entertainers. You have one faction which wants to build a temple in a disputed area, which is guaranteed to light a powder keg and you also have pseudo-seculars and leftys who see nothing wrong with terrorists attacking your own soldiers. What can be more dysfunctional.
    Do send a 'I Love You' card to Sonia. Congress has screwed the country for 60 years, as if by magic the Country would grow, innit? Have some patience. The systems are getting unclogged, plans are afoot to build infrastructure, tax and corporate reforms are happenings, redundant laws are being thrown out. There are many things happening in different fields. It takes time.

    Isn't it great that there are some who entertain Pak? That people can have different and divisive views? Isn't that what democracy is all about? They have freedom to do as they please, as long as they are not making policies and in power.

    Frankly, I would want India to close down the damn embassy in Pak, and expel the Pak ambassador alongwith its consular staff from India. No more visas, no hotline. And everytime the Paks starts a gunfire or a terrorist sneaks in, pound Pak positions with heavy artillery.

    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    Balochistan is in Pak backyard and they won't mind unleashing a river of blood. The world will ignore it because it is a Muslim on Muslim conflict. As I said earlier, for real or imaginary reasons, Paks want to be China's bitch. As long as they feel that way, they will continue to make reckless actions which will result in more Indians dying. In the meantime, Indians will continue to make empty threats and life goes on. Sab chalta hai....
    The Pak Army is consistently doing that in Balochistan. It's not new. What's intriguing is the lack of Indian support for Baloch rebels.

    The reason is real, keep India bleeding and hinder it's progress. China is the shadow no one talks about or doesn't want to talk about. Not long ago Pak was an American ally. And Indian positions were blocked by stupid maneuvering by the State Department and the US administration. If it were not for the Americans, the Indians would have finished the job in 1971. I take it that it is reasonable to accept part of the blame.
    Last edited by TopHatter; 01 Aug 16, at 22:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Actually, it was Bharat Verma who said that - Will China fight India to the last Pakistani? in his book Fault Lines.
    He got it from me. I said that here on this forum when the Brigadier Ray first appeared back before 2003. It took the Indian participants by surprise. The Brigadier thought it was a good joke until he started thinking it through, realizing that it was true, and he thought it to be a brilliant line of strategic thought.

    I actually thought it was obvious and put no big deal to it. From what the Brigadier told me, it caused a "light bulb" moment when he shared that line of thought with his comrades, some still in uniform.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    He got it from me. I said that here on this forum when the Brigadier Ray first appeared back before 2003. It took the Indian participants by surprise. The Brigadier thought it was a good joke until he started thinking it through, realizing that it was true, and he thought it to be a brilliant line of strategic thought.

    I actually thought it was obvious and put no big deal to it. From what the Brigadier told me, it caused a "light bulb" moment when he shared that line of thought with his comrades, some still in uniform.
    No wonder you didn't get credit. I too believed you said it, until I did a google yesterday. The results threw Bharat Verma. Why the hell did you not e-mail him or threaten to sue him? What is yours is yours.

    It took me 5 years as an observer and another 2+ years as a member to understand what the statement really meant.
    Last edited by Oracle; 02 Aug 16, at 05:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    No wonder you didn't get credit. I too believed you said it, until I did a google yesterday. The results threw Bharat Verma. Why the hell did you not e-mail him or threaten to sue him? What is yours is yours.
    The actual authors are the Chinese who came up with that strategy. It's just an observation that was commonly held by China watchers for decades. It was first use by Mao Tse-Tung that he would fight the Americans down to the last Vietnamese. So, no ownership of that line is warranted. I was just surprised that even some very senior Indian officers didn't see it.
    Chimo

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