Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 142

Thread: 2016 Brussels Bombings

  1. #106
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,118
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    firestorm,

    not completely different. poor integration and poor law enforcement, in fact, go hand in hand. Trump's claims notwithstanding, the US Muslim community has been instrumental in allowing US law enforcement to stop attacks before they begin, and to trace wannabe jihadi movement.

    so it's not "blaming the victim" to point out the one, or the other.

    if you say so. we're not the ones with banlieues, and our "Muslim" neighborhoods aren't incubators of terrorist attacks. European police knew that places like Molenbeek and Schaerbeek were problems long, long before the Brussels bombing.
    And yet you still had your Nidal Hasan, Faisal Shehzad, the Tsarnaev brothers, the couple from San Bernardino, Tawwahur Rana and David Headley. The reason there are fewer ones who slip through the cracks, is because is because there are fewer ones to start with and more dispersed. You don't have "Muslim Neighborhoods" like they do in Belgium, France or even the UK. America is huge, has a big population and the number of Muslim immigrants relatively is very small compared to Europe. The ones you do have were very carefully vetted. You have that luxury because of the geographical separation. Europe doesn't. The Middle East and N. Africa are their Mexico. Unfortunately for them, Mexico is the garden of eden compared to the basket case countries in that part of the world, with a violent extremist ideology running increasingly rampant.

    If Mexico switched places with the Middle East (or even Central Asia or the Indian Subcontinent), you'd have Molenbeek in the US and the Europeans only concerned about immigrants taking their jobs, nothing more. Perhaps then, they would pontificate about how the Americans can't assimilate their immigrants.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 25 Mar 16, at 23:49.

  2. #107
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Aug 08
    Location
    UK/Europe
    Posts
    5,334
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    is it also "blaming the victim" if we point out that European law enforcement and intelligence cooperation has been piss poor?
    Yes. Murderers are guilty, not their victims. The US is different because in a nation full of mongrels (to use astralis's phrase) everyone is a mongrel, though I think the American Civil War was about many thinking different to some extent. In Europe we have national identities and the memories that go with them. We don't want to fight another Varna but if we are forced it will win it this time.

  3. #108
    Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Jan 09
    Posts
    479
    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    Around 1% for muslims, but the foreign born population is huge, close to almost 15% now I believe.

    I remember when I first moved to the US back in 03, one think I remember hearing was 'Americans don't make you feel like a foreigner'. And it was mostly true, not to say there wasn't the occasional instances of prejudice.
    so its small compared with europe. and the us has witnessed a fair share of attacks by muslim living there, fort hood, boston, san bernadino...so i dont think your integration of muslim is any better than europe.

    let take the boston bombing for example, those kids were literally brought from hell hole to the state and give with all kinds of opportunities millions could only have dreamed of. And what did they do?

    Or Hasan, he had medical degree and was a major.

    Or the san bernadino, he had a government job didnt he?

    What more integration could have been done? Make them the president?
    Last edited by drhuy; 26 Mar 16, at 03:45.

  4. #109
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    13,877
    drhuy,

    so its small compared with europe. and the us has witnessed a fair share of attacks by muslim living there, fort hood, boston, san bernadino...so i dont think your integration of muslim is any better than europe.

    let take the boston bombing for example, those kids were literally brought from hell hole to the state and give with all kinds of opportunities millions could only have dreamed of. And what did they do?

    Or Hasan, he had medical degree and was a major.

    Or the san bernadino, he had a government job didnt he?
    yes, individual examples, most of them converted by recruiters online.

    nothing like whole neighborhoods filled with resentment, harboring terrorists.

    this is not an accident:

    Name:  foreign fighters.png
Views: 1002
Size:  296.5 KB
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #110
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Sep 06
    Posts
    4,434
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    we're not the ones with banlieues, and our "Muslim" neighborhoods aren't incubators of terrorist attacks.
    This article might be interesting in this regard. It's ... a bit lengthy.

  6. #111
    Contributor
    Join Date
    05 Jan 09
    Posts
    479
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    drhuy,



    yes, individual examples, most of them converted by recruiters online.

    nothing like whole neighborhoods filled with resentment, harboring terrorists.

    this is not an accident:

    Name:  foreign fighters.png
Views: 1002
Size:  296.5 KB
    so what's your point actually?

    paris attacks, recent brussels attacks not "individual examples"?

    "most of them converted by recruiters online". And what's the point by saying this? Actually its only show how little "integration" has to do with terrorism, if they can easily be "converted" by just some folks online.

    The chart also proved nothing. It doesnt change the fact that the US suffers much more act of terrors from their own muslim than let say Denmark, Netherland, Austria, Ireland, which have much higher numbers. So I still dont get what's the point of such data.

    Causal relationship must be established with caution, not just subjective hypothesis. I still dont see any evidence that integration and terrorism has strict causal relationship.

  7. #112
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    9,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Astrails, would you be kind to explain to me the following set up.

    Upon which grounds, you think that the bunch of men, young men that are in the peak of their lives, that are coming from a culture that is not multicultural in any shape or form, are willing and are capable to be integrated into western model of society and culture?
    remember these particular people are convicted felons. Easier to integrate when you're not as marked.

    Nobody cared about integration when there were no bombs. That one can see is the Belgian view which worked until something sprang up from nowhere and now they have to face these bombs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    The rise of "radical" Muslims in Europe is the consequence of their rising numbers and nothing more. This is not my bs nationalism, that is the fact from history.
    How much would your attribute to Saudi funding over the years which is estimated at $75-100 billion as a reason for that radicalism. They promote a more intolerant form of Islam.

    Would you agree there is a cause & effect here.

    For a soft power policy it's having effects in many countries. The difficult part is if you oppose it or piss them off they kick your people out of their country. So this keep countries that have workers in those countries silent. Losing remittances, having a large amount of people return home in a go.

    For statistic lovers, once their number passes 20% mark, look for another country. In my neighborhood there are a bunch of them and none of them speaks Serbian. To make matters worse, security reports are saying that I have sleeper cells in my neighborhood as well.
    I live in a country which currently ranks second in numbers of muslims in the world. If current trends hold it will be the first by 2030.

    Should i be worried ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    I think I need to clarify my position. I think that blaming the rise of radical islamists in Europe on their apparent inability to integrate immigrants is a subtle form of "blame the victim" and people don't even realize they're doing it.
    Yeah. i've banged on this for some time now.

    End of the day, 99% of the victims of these bastards are muslim. If one were to look around in various countries. That is a quote off a talk from the Interior minister of Pakistan.

    Another interesting thing i've learnt as to why the numbers of Paks fighting in Syria is nominal as he put it ? LeT..he didn't say that though. Other jihadi groups do not like competition for manpower and are doing their bit to discourage it.

    Don't know what the reason for India is yet or whether we will see a delayed reaction.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 26 Mar 16, at 20:12.

  8. #113
    Contributor 1980s's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 08
    Posts
    702
    Again, i think the late Christopher Hitchens always could sum up perfectly the many problems about 'militant' Islam (or should i just say Islam period?)


  9. #114
    Contributor
    Join Date
    14 Sep 08
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    622
    Quote Originally Posted by drhuy View Post
    so its small compared with europe. and the us has witnessed a fair share of attacks by muslim living there, fort hood, boston, san bernadino...so i dont think your integration of muslim is any better than europe.

    let take the boston bombing for example, those kids were literally brought from hell hole to the state and give with all kinds of opportunities millions could only have dreamed of. And what did they do?

    Or Hasan, he had medical degree and was a major.

    Or the san bernadino, he had a government job didnt he?

    What more integration could have been done? Make them the president?
    So out of a population of 3 million muslims in the United States, perhaps around 10 individuals go out and commit a terrorist attack. You are getting close to one in a million odds for a muslim in the United States going out and committing mass murder in the name of Islam. Now compare that with the thousands of Americans, white, black, hispanic or asian who kill each other with guns every single year.

    Yes, muslim integration has worked much worked much better in the US than in Europe, it is a simple fact.

    And feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that there has been a single attack in the United States by an Al Qaeda or ISIS sleeper cell since 9/11 similar to the Paris or Brussels attacks, all have been committed by lone individuals usually radicalized online.

  10. #115
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Jul 06
    Location
    Belgrade
    Posts
    2,935
    Thanks to the Pacific and Atlantic, carrier battle groups, nuclear weapons, several intelligence agencies, political elite that is in bed with big oli...I mean the list goes on and on.

  11. #116
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    09 Oct 10
    Posts
    1,107
    This makes interesting reading
    http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/...for-extremism/

    Some thoughts (many which have been mentioned by others in some manner) on this interesting debate comparing US and Europe integration.

    Looking at the foreign fighters in Syrian graph above I am fairly dubious it can be particularly useful in proving superior US integration policies. That's not to say it doesn't exist.

    One thing on the graph is that per capita, Ireland is higher/similar to Britain. Our muslim population is small, over half from Africa or asia, most have arrived in last 25 years, and they are not concentrated. We may just be an outlier, given the small statistical numbers but the entire graph is vulnerable in this sense. If its not an outlier, It indicates that integration may not be a significant factor in producing militants that went to Syria. Once again I am not saying that there is not a comparative difference in integration, just that the above data is probably not evidence of it.

    It seems logical that Americas isolation is a factor, their intelligence agencies, their ability to filter arrivals, muslim immigrants havnt arrived in huge migration influxes, say like Algerians in France, all this has helped the Americans.

    I would be curious if ISIS just has an exceptional grass roots recruitment agency in Europe, but not the US, and this is a key factor. Nevertheless, integration does seem likely to be a problem for us Europeans and part of the explanation.

  12. #117
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    09 Oct 10
    Posts
    1,107
    http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/...for-extremism/

    Name:  2010-muslim-americans-s0-04.png
Views: 149
Size:  15.0 KB

    Name:  PG-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10.png
Views: 145
Size:  30.0 KB

    USA does better than most muslim nations (but still a significant problematic minority). (cant find equivalent PEW research for european nations)

    People should look at the survey of american muslims makes for interesting reading.
    Last edited by tantalus; 27 Mar 16, at 23:56.

  13. #118
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
    Join Date
    15 Apr 08
    Location
    Transylvania
    Posts
    5,158
    Or consider this.They don't want to attack the Americans more than just for show or via uncontrolled fighters.

    What is more suitable?To make a Bosnia near the Islamic reservoir of people,or to have the USMC taking Mosul by storm?
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  14. #119
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    09 Oct 10
    Posts
    1,107
    Interestingly Kato's article mentions that many foreign fighters stem from the middle classes in France, although the trend with ISIS has weakened that pattern more recently, we have seen it in the past.

    I think it's easy to overstate social integration as a bigger problem in terrorism than it is. Failure for muslims to integrate, and or be integrated provided countless negative outcomes in society, and we should do our best to find solutions, especially if the Americans have something to offer in terms of policy, but fundamentally, a rigid interpretation of the Quran and sharia are not compatible in the west, and people with these views are likely to turn violent (edit. "hostile" would be a more appropriate word choice, as those who turn violent are so few) on us.
    Last edited by tantalus; 28 Mar 16, at 00:23.

  15. #120
    Contributor
    Join Date
    14 Sep 08
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    622
    Quote Originally Posted by tantalus View Post
    Interestingly Kato's article mentions that many foreign fighters stem from the middle classes in France, although the trend with ISIS has weakened that pattern more recently, we have seen it in the past.

    I think it's easy to overstate social integration as a bigger problem in terrorism than it is. Failure for muslims to integrate, and or be integrated provided countless negative outcomes in society, and we should do our best to find solutions, especially if the Americans have something to offer in terms of policy, but fundamentally, a rigid interpretation of the Quran and sharia are not compatible in the west, and people with these views are likely to turn violent (edit. "hostile" would be a more appropriate word choice, as those who turn violent are so few) on us.
    Radical Islam and terrorism is a complex issue and there are several factors that drive it of which the failure of integration is only one. Poverty is another but that doesn't explain why oil rich Saudi Arabia sends thousands of fighters to ISIS while India with its tens of millions of poor muslims sends only a handful. Some European countries like the UK and Belgium seem to have a proliferation of radical mosques and recruiters for extremist organizations from which ISIS supporters are drawn which appears to be relatively absent in other countries like Germany even if they have a larger muslim population. In other cases like Pakistan, the Government has nurtured fanatical groups as a geo-political tool only to have it back fire spectacularly.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The 2016 US General Election
    By DOR in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 4661
    Last Post: 04 Jan 17,, 17:46
  2. Brussels bombed , many dead .
    By tankie in forum International Politics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 22 Mar 16,, 15:29
  3. 40 most powerful military nations of 2016
    By gunnut in forum International Politics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 14 Feb 16,, 10:00
  4. Media bias 2016 election
    By troung in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 30 Dec 15,, 22:17
  5. Space station to be de-orbited by 2016
    By diablo49 in forum Science & Technology
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 25 Jul 09,, 00:38

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •