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Thread: 2016 Brussels Bombings

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    versus,



    because the US has done it before, over and over again. the Japanese were and are not multicultural in any shape or form, they had a militarist religion and society, and guess what, the sons and daughters of those immigrants integrated and proved their worth as citizens despite terrible racism and even being put into camps.

    some of them joined the military, and an all-Japanese-American unit became the most decorated unit in United States history.
    So the USA treated Japanese immigrants horribly during WW2. Far, far worse than what the middle-eastern immigrants in France, Belgium and Germany face today. The credit for the Japanese integrating so well must got to them, not American society. You flatter yourself by thinking you are so much better than the Europeans.

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    versus,

    I think that the biggest difference between your stance and mine is that you see them as refugees, people that are running away from war and in search of better life, and I see them as an advancing army with one goal in mind. You see this as a humanitarian crisis I see it as a military operation.
    you are entirely correct here. from my POV, if this was an "advancing army with one goal in mind", for a conspiracy they're sure doing it badly given all the backlash in Europe.

    Comparing Japanese during the WW2 and this is mixing apples and oranges. What about Germans whom went from US to Germany to fight US?
    how many of those were there? surely not as much as the other way around...:-)

    if you like something a bit closer, anti-immigrants advocated that the US stop allowing immigration of Jews and Eastern Europeans because they were afraid of the Bolshevik and anarchist threat. which there WAS quite a loud minority of those in both groups.

    good thing that didn't fully go through, or else the likes of Einstein wouldn't have come to the US.

    bottom-line, US does integration well, so we reap a greater benefit from immigration than other countries do...and that, in turn, gives us the economy and the capability to protect us against the bad apples.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #78
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    versus,



    you are entirely correct here. from my POV, if this was an "advancing army with one goal in mind", for a conspiracy they're sure doing it badly given all the backlash in Europe.



    how many of those were there? surely not as much as the other way around...:-)

    if you like something a bit closer, anti-immigrants advocated that the US stop allowing immigration of Jews and Eastern Europeans because they were afraid of the Bolshevik and anarchist threat. which there WAS quite a loud minority of those in both groups.

    good thing that didn't fully go through, or else the likes of Einstein wouldn't have come to the US.

    bottom-line, US does integration well, so we reap a greater benefit from immigration than other countries do...and that, in turn, gives us the economy and the capability to protect us against the bad apples.
    There is one big difference between Eastern Europeans, Jews,Japanese and Muslims...they don't have a little nifty thing called Jihad and that, Astrails, cannot be explained, it has to be experienced.
    Last edited by Versus; 25 Mar 16, at 19:18.

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    firestorm,

    So the USA treated Japanese immigrants horribly during WW2. Far, far worse than what the middle-eastern immigrants in France, Belgium and Germany face today. The credit for the Japanese integrating so well must got to them, not American society. You flatter yourself by thinking you are so much better than the Europeans.
    what you're not seeing is WHY the Japanese-Americans wanted to integrate. it's because the WW2 example was an exception, not a rule. that despite the racism, they knew they were American just as much as the natives. they believed in American ideals, otherwise who would tolerate that type of crap?

    of course I believe the US is generally superior to Europe when it comes to matters of integration. the US doesn't really have banlieues seething with immigrant resentment. for that matter, -I'm- a 1.5-generation immigrant. my wife is a first generation immigrant. one of my best friends is a Japanese-American whose husband is a Caucasian from Ohio. one of my wife's best friends is an Indian-American whose wife is Chinese-American.

    and guess what, no one cares about any of that, except when it's time for a potluck.

    American society is a society of mongrels and mutts, that's who we are-- and it's great.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    versus,

    There is one big difference between Eastern Europeans, Jews,Japanese and Muslims...they don't have a little nifty thing called Jihad and that, Astrails, cannot be explained, it has to be experienced.
    yeah, we experienced it. 9-11.

    big hairy deal, how many Americans did Germans and Japanese kill during WWII?

    yet we allowed them in afterwards, and now their children and their grandchildren are US citizens. I have a similar belief in the power of America to do the same here...because we've done this before as well.

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    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  6. #81
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Also, US is not accessible for land invasion.

  7. #82
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    versus,



    yeah, we experienced it. 9-11.

    big hairy deal, how many Americans did Germans and Japanese kill during WWII?

    yet we allowed them in afterwards, and now their children and their grandchildren are US citizens. I have a similar belief in the power of America to do the same here...because we've done this before as well.

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    That doesn't count, only the time span longer than two centuries counts. We did five. On 9-11 you experienced an ATTACK by Muslim radicals, not life under the Islam. I will write about it in the next milestone at the autopsy thread. Also I have some nice oil paintings, from both European and our Museums that quite vividly show that life.
    Last edited by Versus; 25 Mar 16, at 19:31.

  8. #83
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,

    to be sure, it's rarely the first-generation immigrants whom are the issue-- they -went- there after all. it's the second and third-generation, the ones whom DID go to school in Europe but quickly found out that no matter what they did, the natives still consider them wogs.

    that's hugely devastating, it's not an accident that a lot of the second-generation here in the States are more patriotic than the native-born. if that is rejected, it's not much of a surprise that these types often take on the old religion with a fervor that would shock their parents.
    Agree. What the author wrote was that those 2nd and 3rd generation men look toward their ancestral homes for brides. Their children would always have first generation values even though they technically would be 3rd and 4th generation immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    integration is a huge US strength, one of the areas which I criticize Obama for is not opening the doors wider. (of course, it doesn't help that the GOP is demagoguing this to death.) if there's going to be all these refugees, i'd rather them go to a place which has plenty of experience integrating refugees and not end up sullen and turning into more ISIS cannonfodder down the line. they cost in the short-term but will be highly productive US citizens soon enough.
    I semi agree. It would be great if we bring in all these immigrants and then integrate them. The problem is we don't. We cater to their native cultural needs in the name of "multiculturalism." Another problem is instead of these people doing everything possible to come here willingly, like the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Vietnamese, and all those people before them who made the conscious decision to leave everything behind and come to this new land, you want to "bring them here." Do you see the problem with that? Maybe they don't want to be here? If they aren't here willingly, they are less likely to integrate. This will always be a guest house for them. Even some people who come here willingly don't integrate. We have enclaves of Chinese and Mexicans where one could go through one's entire life without learning a word of English. That's not integration.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    firestorm,

    what you're not seeing is WHY the Japanese-Americans wanted to integrate. it's because the WW2 example was an exception, not a rule. that despite the racism, they knew they were American just as much as the natives. they believed in American ideals, otherwise who would tolerate that type of crap?
    Astralis, answer this, were different-race immigrants in the US in the 1930's and 1940's treated better than different-race immigrants in Europe are today? I mean, you were segregating African-americans who weren't even immigrants. How much better could the Japanese have had it? Racism was a LOT more common back then than it is today.

    In Germany, you had tons of people lining up to welcome Syrian refugees not long back. Yet, some of them (or their children) decide they hate their adoptive countries so much that they will blow themselves up in a crowded place. I think the blame for that lies somewhere else than any lack of European ability to integrate.

    of course I believe the US is generally superior to Europe when it comes to matters of integration. the US doesn't really have banlieues seething with immigrant resentment. for that matter, -I'm- a 1.5-generation immigrant. my wife is a first generation immigrant. one of my best friends is a Japanese-American whose husband is a Caucasian from Ohio. one of my wife's best friends is an Indian-American whose wife is Chinese-American.

    and guess what, no one cares about any of that, except when it's time for a potluck.
    Pretty sure there are examples like this in western european countries as well. What does it prove?
    Last edited by Firestorm; 25 Mar 16, at 19:36.

  10. #85
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    gunnut,

    Another problem is instead of these people doing everything possible to come here willingly, like the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Vietnamese, and all those people before them who made the conscious decision to leave everything behind and come to this new land, you want to "bring them here." Do you see the problem with that? Maybe they don't want to be here? If they aren't here willingly, they are less likely to integrate.
    if you're willing to go through the onerous refugee resettlement process that State has, yeah...you want to be here. as Versus pointed out, we have a pretty big ocean as a gap.

    Even some people who come here willingly don't integrate. We have enclaves of Chinese and Mexicans where one could go through one's entire life without learning a word of English. That's not integration.
    yeah, I've been to Rowland Heights and Santa Ana too ;-)

    it's all about the proportion. it's not as if we're 100% integration, but we're a lot higher than what Europe has got. if you think of it as a drop of ink in an ocean, the issue that a lot of people fear is that we'll turn into the ink and American values will disappear. but that wasn't true even when immigrants made up a LOT higher percentage of the population than they do today, and it's not true now.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  11. #86
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    versus,

    yeah, we experienced it. 9-11.

    big hairy deal, how many Americans did Germans and Japanese kill during WWII?

    yet we allowed them in afterwards, and now their children and their grandchildren are US citizens. I have a similar belief in the power of America to do the same here...because we've done this before as well.

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    The difference is that Japanese, Germans, Russians, are all ethnic groups.

    Islam is a religion.

    Japanese identify themselves as Japanese first, not shintoists. Germans are Germans first, not catholics. Russians are Russians first, not orthodox.

    There is a difference.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  12. #87
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    firestorm,

    Astralis, answer this, were different-race immigrants in the US in the 1930's and 1940's treated better than different-race immigrants in Europe are today? I mean, you were segregating African-americans who weren't even immigrants. How much better could the Japanese have had it? Racism was a LOT more common back then than it is today.
    yup, racism was higher, but ultimately long-term acceptance was higher too. back in the 1890s WASPs darkly muttered about how Italians and Polish and Portuguese were ruining the character, values, and the racial makeup of the country, that disappeared over time.

    same thing with Japanese in the next wave, in the 1930s.

    same thing with Indians and Vietnamese in the 1970s.

    bottom-line, there's something about the cultural milieu of America where despite the obvious racism, immigrants ended up integrating into the fabric of American society. for some reason, that's not been true, it seems, of a lot of the North African and Turkish and Middle Eastern immigrants into Europe.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  13. #88
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Astrails, things that work for US do not work for the rest of the world.

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    gunnut,

    The difference is that Japanese, Germans, Russians, are all ethnic groups.

    Islam is a religion.

    Japanese identify themselves as Japanese first, not shintoists. Germans are Germans first, not catholics. Russians are Russians first, not orthodox.

    There is a difference.
    recall that as late as the 1960s, JFK had to publicly state that even though he was a Catholic, he would not take orders from the Pope.

    nothing new.

    Muslims have a theology that supposedly transcends nationalism, just as Christians (and particularly Catholics!) do. reality is different, even if propagandists at ISIS would have us believe otherwise. and it's in OUR interests to show the world the difference. bad enough from ISIS POV that Muslims are streaming out of Syria to escape their wonderful Caliphate, it is even worse when they start integrating.

    that's why when ISIS targets the vulnerable, one of their first orders is to ask the victim to start isolating themselves and stop talking to their friends and family.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  15. #90
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,

    if you're willing to go through the onerous refugee resettlement process that State has, yeah...you want to be here. as Versus pointed out, we have a pretty big ocean as a gap.
    Did they ask to be here? Or are we just "taking them in?"

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    yeah, I've been to Rowland Heights and Santa Ana too ;-)

    it's all about the proportion. it's not as if we're 100% integration, but we're a lot higher than what Europe has got. if you think of it as a drop of ink in an ocean, the issue that a lot of people fear is that we'll turn into the ink and American values will disappear. but that wasn't true even when immigrants made up a LOT higher percentage of the population than they do today, and it's not true now.
    The problem is that drop of ink does not disperse. Sometimes it gathers other drops of ink and they coalesce into larger pools of ink.

    One key point is we must not give preferential treatment. We can't place their religious value above our social norms. Driver's license photos must show the entire head. No hijabs or burqas. We don't shut down the production line 3 times a day to accommodate a few prayers. Pray during your break time and don't inconvenience other workers.

    Here's a good question. How well has the "African American" population integrated with the rest of the group? Would you say they have integrated more or less than more recent immigrant groups like the Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese, or even the Mexicans? How long have they been here? How much are we coddling them? Maybe we shouldn't give them special treatment.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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