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Thread: 2016 Brussels Bombings

  1. #61
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    artillery, old chap. the Russkis were the ones crazy about using cavalry to run down protesters, too bad that's NOT a good idea if you're talking about a mass of humanity confronting you behind barricades.

    what Europe is missing is an integration system. it featured openness but without inclusiveness, and that's a recipe for a multicultural disaster. it's too bad; European nationalism is either looked down upon by the cosmopolitans or it's the blood-and-soil variety of the far right wing.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  2. #62
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    It takes 2 to tango.What is there to include?

    As for artillery,hunger works better.Besides,I doubt the W.European armies have enough ammo left to level a city.
    Those who know don't speak
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  3. #63
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    artillery, old chap. the Russkis were the ones crazy about using cavalry to run down protesters, too bad that's NOT a good idea if you're talking about a mass of humanity confronting you behind barricades.

    what Europe is missing is an integration system. it featured openness but without inclusiveness, and that's a recipe for a multicultural disaster. it's too bad; European nationalism is either looked down upon by the cosmopolitans or it's the blood-and-soil variety of the far right wing.
    This is precisely the problem.

    I read an article 2 days ago talking about this. The author wrote that Europeans imported cheap labor from former colonies to make up for the labor shortage after WW2. At first they thought the laborers would "self deport" after the job was completed. They didn't. The host country never asked the foreigners to integrate, 1) out of colonial guilt and 2) they really don't want to integrate them. What these people ended up being was a marginalized group given "hand outs" by what they perceive to be ungrateful employers and racist hosts. These people identify to be muslims first, their country of origin second, and European/host nation third. Second and third generation men would go back to their ancestral homelands to look for a bride. Their children are always first generation immigrants, with values from their ancestral homes over their host nation.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  4. #64
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Military occupation? It's a suburb of Brussels, not Damascus. Does Brussels not have a police force.
    It's a difficult job, if inter community relations aren't good nobody will cooperate.

    So you're looking for a needle in a haystack.

    Because Belgium had the most accomodating bureacracy to create an enclave outside control? At a guess....
    outside control, that's it.

  5. #65
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Same as in Germany. Moroccans and Turks coming in in the early 60s as guest workers - plus their families in the 70s to 90s, and their children, and their grandchildren...
    About 5% of the Belgian population are estimated to ethnically belong to these two, while in Germany it's about 4%.

    The percentage share of muslims in Belgium and the Netherlands (both at 6%) does not really exceed that in Germany (5%), and is considerably less than that of France (nearly 10%). The difference in Belgium and the Netherlands is that unlike in other countries these are mostly clustered in Brussels, Amsterdam and Rotterdam, where each around 25% of the population are muslim, and in Belgium also in Antwerp (the second-largest city; 17%); by comparison in the highest concentrations in Germany it's only 10-12%. The UK comes up somewhere in the middle btw, with London at 14% and Manchester at 16%.

    In France, where the muslim population is around 9.6% share overall due to North African former parts of the countries and former colonies, both Marseilles and the city of Roubaix near Lille on the Belgian border have very significant muslim populations (20-25%), while throughout the rest of the country (including Paris and its infamous suburbs) it barely ever exceeds 10-12% much like in Germany. The Charlie Hebdo attackers came from one of these higher concentrations as well, i.e. the Lille/Roubaix area.
    Those are high numbers. Thx.

  6. #66
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory

    The shock troops used in the terrorist group’s signature attacks are largely men already well known to local law enforcement — not as religious radicals, but as criminals.

    Some recruits have scant knowledge of Islam but, attracted by the group’s violent ideology, they become skilled and eager accomplices in carrying out acts of extraordinary cruelty.

    “Some of these guys are just looking for an opportunity to justify their violence and criminality,” said Ali Soufan “Now, with ISIS, it is justified — because they can say they’re doing it for God.”

    Indeed, some European officials say the perpetrators in the most recent attacks appear to be part of a new wave of recruits that are not “radical Islamists” but rather “Islamized radicals” — people from society’s outer margins who feel at home with a terrorist organization noted for beheading hostages and executing unarmed civilians.

    “Their revolt from society manifested itself through petty crime and delinquency,” Belgian counterterrorism official Alain Grignard said in an essay published by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point. “Many are essentially part of street gangs. What the Islamic State brought in its wake was a new strain of Islam which legitimized their radical approach.”


    “There are so many links” between criminals and Islamist militants, Belgian Foreign Minister Didier Reynders said at a security conference in Brussels on Sunday. “They are using the same tools. They are using the same cars, the same apartments, the same locations.”


    Over the past year, counterterrorism officials and experts in Europe have begun to document a profound shift in the typical profile of terrorist recruits, asserting that the latest arrivals are closer in key characteristics to urban street gangs than religious extremists.

    “For them, joining [the Islamic State] is merely a shift to another form of deviant behavior,” said a report released this month by Rik Coolsaet, a professor in Belgium who has studied the foreign fighter flow. Membership in the Islamic State is for many Muslim youths part of a progression that began with “gangs, rioting, drug trafficking and juvenile delinquency,” Coolsaet wrote. “But it adds a thrilling, larger-than-life dimension to their way of life — transforming them from delinquents without a future into mujahideen with a cause.”
    This explains quite a bit what motivates these people, particularly from Europe, it explains the low turnout from the subcontinent.

    The expanding cohort of terror recruits from criminal backgrounds was described by Coolsaet as the “fourth wave” of jihadist terrorism, following cycles including those who flocked to Afghanistan in the 1980s, their elite Middle East expatriate successors who were drawn to al-Qaeda, and finally homegrown radicals who forged their bonds over the Internet.
    Right, this 4th wave is different from the jihads of old. They were more self-righteous.


    The prominent criminal element among the networks in Belgium is in contrast to previous generations of terror cells, most notably the roster of al-Qaeda operatives who were based in Hamburg before carrying out the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    Few of those militants had a criminal record or even any notable brushes with law enforcement — résumé flaws that al-Qaeda worried would attract scrutiny from law enforcement and risk exposing the group’s elaborate, multiyear plot.

    Several members of the Hamburg cell came from middle-class or affluent families. Most spent time in Germany pursuing degrees in highly technical fields such as electrical engineering and chemistry. Their principal bond was a deepening commitment to an extreme interpretation of Islam, which they cultivated during parlorlike discussions at an apartment they took to calling “Dar el Ansar,” or “House of the Followers,” according to the report by the U.S. commission that investigated the 9/11 attacks.

    The archetype of this breed was Mohammed Atta, who came from a middle-class family in Egypt, had worked as an urban planner in Cairo and “applied himself fairly seriously” to his studies in Hamburg, according to the report. He went to the trouble of completing his advanced degree before leaving for Afghanistan, where he and others were all but handpicked by Osama bin Laden to lead the plot to hijack airliners and plow them into U.S. landmarks.

    The Islamic State is clearly of a different lineage that dates to the group’s earliest days, when it was called al-Qaeda in Iraq. The group’s founder, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was a tattooed Jordanian with a long history of criminal violence in his home country.

    Zarqawi, a high school dropout with no formal theological training, fashioned the organization in his own image, ignoring Islamic taboos such as the use of suicide bombers when it suited his purposes. His brutality drew harsh rebukes from bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders of the time, recalled Nada Bakos, a former CIA officer involved in tracking Zarqawi.

    “Zarqawi was never fully accepted into the al-Qaeda brand because he was a thug, and because his logistics network was involved with criminal enterprises,” Bakos said. “These [Islamic State] guys are the same.”
    See the difference. No suprise the old bad guys dont like this new breed.

  7. #67
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    gunnut,

    I read an article 2 days ago talking about this. The author wrote that Europeans imported cheap labor from former colonies to make up for the labor shortage after WW2. At first they thought the laborers would "self deport" after the job was completed. They didn't. The host country never asked the foreigners to integrate, 1) out of colonial guilt and 2) they really don't want to integrate them. What these people ended up being was a marginalized group given "hand outs" by what they perceive to be ungrateful employers and racist hosts. These people identify to be muslims first, their country of origin second, and European/host nation third. Second and third generation men would go back to their ancestral homelands to look for a bride. Their children are always first generation immigrants, with values from their ancestral homes over their host nation.
    to be sure, it's rarely the first-generation immigrants whom are the issue-- they -went- there after all. it's the second and third-generation, the ones whom DID go to school in Europe but quickly found out that no matter what they did, the natives still consider them wogs.

    that's hugely devastating, it's not an accident that a lot of the second-generation here in the States are more patriotic than the native-born. if that is rejected, it's not much of a surprise that these types often take on the old religion with a fervor that would shock their parents.

    integration is a huge US strength, one of the areas which I criticize Obama for is not opening the doors wider. (of course, it doesn't help that the GOP is demagoguing this to death.) if there's going to be all these refugees, i'd rather them go to a place which has plenty of experience integrating refugees and not end up sullen and turning into more ISIS cannonfodder down the line. they cost in the short-term but will be highly productive US citizens soon enough.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,



    to be sure, it's rarely the first-generation immigrants whom are the issue-- they -went- there after all. it's the second and third-generation, the ones whom DID go to school in Europe but quickly found out that no matter what they did, the natives still consider them wogs.

    that's hugely devastating, it's not an accident that a lot of the second-generation here in the States are more patriotic than the native-born. if that is rejected, it's not much of a surprise that these types often take on the old religion with a fervor that would shock their parents.

    integration is a huge US strength, one of the areas which I criticize Obama for is not opening the doors wider. (of course, it doesn't help that the GOP is demagoguing this to death.) if there's going to be all these refugees, i'd rather them go to a place which has plenty of experience integrating refugees and not end up sullen and turning into more ISIS cannonfodder down the line. they cost in the short-term but will be highly productive US citizens soon enough.
    what's the current percentage of muslim population in the US now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drhuy View Post
    what's the current percentage of muslim population in the US now?
    Around 1% for muslims, but the foreign born population is huge, close to almost 15% now I believe.

    I remember when I first moved to the US back in 03, one think I remember hearing was 'Americans don't make you feel like a foreigner'. And it was mostly true, not to say there wasn't the occasional instances of prejudice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    And it was mostly true, not to say there wasn't the occasional instances of prejudice.
    Well, that's because we don't like maple syrup suckers and frost backs!
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    Around 1% for muslims, but the foreign born population is huge, close to almost 15% now I believe.
    That's actually not as huge as it seems, i'd consider that pretty normal from a European perspective. It was 13.45% in Germany at the end of 2014 before the current immigration wave; should now be around 14.3% at beginning of 2016, although we don't have statistics on that yet. In the US the foreign-born population share was 13.13% as of the end of 2014, meaning about the same (it rose to 13.14% by June 2015). The US numbers include an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants.

    Note that there is a slight difference in data collection in the above though. The US defines "foreign-born" as anyone living in the US who did not have US nationality at birth; it therefore excludes abroad births to US parents (defined as native-born). The German - and European - definition defines "foreign-born" purely based on territory, i.e. includes births abroad. This difference in definition, if unified, would edge the above stated 0.32% difference between Germany and the US even closer.

    (P.S.: In case someone wonders, Belgium is at around 13% too. Again, like the muslim population, clustered heavily, with Brussels having up to 29% foreign-born population - although that's also owing to its status within the EU)
    Last edited by kato; 25 Mar 16, at 18:51.

  12. #72
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    artillery, old chap. the Russkis were the ones crazy about using cavalry to run down protesters, too bad that's NOT a good idea if you're talking about a mass of humanity confronting you behind barricades.

    what Europe is missing is an integration system. it featured openness but without inclusiveness, and that's a recipe for a multicultural disaster. it's too bad; European nationalism is either looked down upon by the cosmopolitans or it's the blood-and-soil variety of the far right wing.
    Astrails, would you be kind to explain to me the following set up.

    Upon which grounds, you think that the bunch of men, young men that are in the peak of their lives, that are coming from a culture that is not multicultural in any shape or form, are willing and are capable to be integrated into western model of society and culture?

  13. #73
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    And by the way, there was another explosion and police raid in Belgium.

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    versus,

    Upon which grounds, you think that the bunch of men, young men that are in the peak of their lives, that are coming from a culture that is not multicultural in any shape or form, are willing and are capable to be integrated into western model of society and culture?
    because the US has done it before, over and over again. the Japanese were and are not multicultural in any shape or form, they had a militarist religion and society, and guess what, the sons and daughters of those immigrants integrated and proved their worth as citizens despite terrible racism and even being put into camps.

    some of them joined the military, and an all-Japanese-American unit became the most decorated unit in United States history.

    every single argument I've seen used about the non-suitability of the refugees on grounds of race or religion has been used before, whether you're talking about European Jews or Eastern Europeans or Japanese or Chinese.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  15. #75
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    versus,



    because the US has done it before, over and over again. the Japanese were and are not multicultural in any shape or form, they had a militarist religion and society, and guess what, the sons and daughters of those immigrants integrated and proved their worth as citizens despite terrible racism and even being put into camps.

    some of them joined the military, and an all-Japanese-American unit became the most decorated unit in United States history.

    every single argument I've seen used about the non-suitability of the refugees on grounds of race or religion has been used before, whether you're talking about European Jews or Eastern Europeans or Japanese or Chinese.
    I think that the biggest difference between your stance and mine is that you see them as refugees, people that are running away from war and in search of better life, and I see them as an advancing army with one goal in mind. You see this as a humanitarian crisis I see it as a military operation.
    Comparing Japanese during the WW2 and this is mixing apples and oranges. What about Germans whom went from US to Germany to fight US?
    Last edited by Versus; 25 Mar 16, at 18:41.

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