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Thread: Indian student accused of sedition 'beaten up by lawyers'

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    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Indian student accused of sedition 'beaten up by lawyers'

    Indian student leader accused of sedition 'beaten up by lawyers'


    The Indian student union leader at the centre of a case that has triggered protests across universities and accusations that the government is trying to muzzle free speech says he has been beaten up outside court by lawyers.The Indian student union leader at the centre of a case that has triggered protests across universities and accusations that the government is trying to muzzle free speech says he has been beaten up outside court by lawyers.

    In a repeat of chaotic scenes from Monday, Kanhaiya Kumar, head of the student union at Delhi’s Jawaharlal Nehru University, claimed he was hit by lawyers chanting nationalist slogans. Kumar, who is accused of sedition, told the court he was manhandled on the way in and lost his shoes in the process. “I was rebuked, I was attacked,” he said.

    Defence lawyer Vrinda Grover told Reuters: “A person has come dressed as a lawyer and beaten him up inside the court premises today. The police couldn’t do anything, it’s a complete violation of the supreme court order.”

    About a dozen lawyers threw rocks at reporters and protesters. One grabbed the camera strap of an Associated Press photographer, bruising his hand and breaking his lens.

    The lawyers – many of whom had been involved in similar violence on Monday when reporters and Kumar’s supporters were beaten outside the court premises – waved Indian flags and chanted: “glory to Mother India” and “traitors leave India”.

    The remand hearing was briefly adjourned as the supreme court rushed a team of commissioners to investigate the events at the Patiala House court in Delhi.

    The court banned protests after Monday’s violence. Kumar, 28, was arrested at a student rally last week held to commemorate the anniversary of the execution of a Kashmiri separatist over his role in an attack on the Indian parliament in 2001. His supporters deny he made any incendiary remarks.

    The reaction of authorities to the protests at JNU – which is well known for its politically active student body and strongly disliked by the Hindu right – comes against a background of what critics say is rising intolerance in India since Narendra Modi and the Bharatiya Janata party swept to power in 2014.

    The government has repeatedly been accused of seeking to repress free speech and encouraging extremist nationalists who systematically intimidate critics. Some independent commentators and legal experts have criticised the Modi government for exploiting the colonial-era sedition law to silence its opponents.

    Soli Sorabjee, a former attorney general, deplored Kumar’s arrest. He told Reuters: “Any critical comment against government policy does not amount to sedition. Only acts that can disturb law and order or incite violence can be stamped as sedition.”

    Modi’s party rejected the criticism. “The constitution is clear that freedom of speech does not extend to the right to promote secession; slogans that demand the disintegration of India cannot be condoned,” said MJ Akbar, a BJP spokesman.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...iversity-delhi


    India: Outspoken Activists Charged with Sedition


    Police Stand By While Suspect’s Supporters Assaulted in Court

    (New York, February 20, 2016) – Indian authorities should stop charging peaceful activists with sedition for alleged anti-national speech, Human Rights Watch said today. In mid-February 2016, police arrested a student union leader, Kanhaiya Kumar, and a former teacher, S.A.R. Geelani, in apparently politically motivated cases. On February 15, a member of Delhi state legislature from the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and others were filmed physically assaulting Kumar’s supporters in a New Delhi court while police stood by.

    “The BJP government seems eager to punish peaceful speech – but less willing to investigate supporters who commit violence in the name of nationalism,” said Meenakshi Ganguly, South Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “The authorities not only need to find out why BJP supporters were apparently involved in an assault inside a court, but also why the police did nothing.”

    The Indian authorities should immediately drop all charges that violate the right to free expression, and fully investigate the attack inside the court and fairly prosecute those responsible, including any ruling party supporters, Human Rights Watch said.

    On February 12, police in Delhi arrested Kumar, the student union leader, at Jawaharlal Nehru University, after the BJP student-wing accused him of making anti-national speeches on the anniversary of the February 2013 hanging of Mohammad Afzal Guru, who was convicted for his role in the December 2001 attack on parliament that killed nine people. Geelani, a former Delhi University teacher, was arrested on February 16, after participants at a separate Afzal anniversary event at the Press Club of India made anti-India slogans. Police said Geelani was charged with sedition because he had organized the event.

    The police reportedly began conducting search operations in several Indian cities for other students they say were “ring leaders” after the minister for home affairs warned that those who shouted anti-India slogans and challenged India’s sovereignty and integrity during these meetings “will not be tolerated and spared.”

    On February 15, when Kumar was produced in a Delhi court, a group of about 40 men wearing lawyers’ black jackets attacked students and university faculty members who had come to support Kumar.

    Among those caught on camera apparently assaulting Kumar’s supporters was a BJP leader, Om Prakash Sharma. Sonal Mehrotra, a television reporter at the scene, reported that the assailants confronted her and several senior professors sitting nearby and threatened to harm them if they did not leave the courtroom. Five police officers were in the courtroom but did nothing. Mehrotra said that when she started recording violence outside, she was threatened again: “Around 10 lawyers cornered us and said give us your phones or we will break your bones.” Several journalists said they were threatened and attacked.

    Sharma was arrested, briefly detained, and released on bail on February 18. He told India Today television that he had retaliated in self-defense. “If someone hits you, if they abuse your motherland, you have to react.” At the same time, Sharma also stood by an earlier statement he made after the incident: “If I had a gun I would have opened fire. If someone abuses our mother, won’t I hit him?”

    Acting on a petition that alleged that the police were a “mute spectator to the brazen display of brute force,” the Supreme Court restricted the number of people inside the courtroom for Kumar’s hearing on February 17 and asked the police chief to ensure his safety.

    However, as Kumar was being escorted inside the courtroom, men in lawyers’ black jackets slapped, kicked, and punched Kumar, according to media reports. The Supreme Court then rushed a delegation of senior lawyers to assess the situation, which confirmed that Kumar was assaulted and that the police had failed to ensure his safety. The Supreme Court has sought an explanation from the Delhi police commissioner by February 19. The Bar Council said it would revoke the licenses of any lawyers involved in violent attacks.

    The government should undertake an independent investigation into the police response to the violence, Human Rights Watch said. Strong disciplinary measures should be taken against police personnel found negligent.

    Kumar’s arrest has led to protests by students and academics in universities across India and has prompted condemnation from scholars around the world.

    The case has highlighted the urgent need for India’s parliament to repeal the country’s sedition law, Human Rights Watch said. Section 124A of the Indian penal code prohibits any words, spoken or written, or any signs or visible representation that can cause “hatred or contempt, or excites or attempts to excite disaffection,” toward the government. India’s Supreme Court has imposed limits on the use of the sedition law, making incitement to violence a necessary element, but police continue to file sedition charges even in cases where this requirement is not met.

    Repeated use of the law to silence peaceful speech is a violation of India’s international human rights obligations. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which India ratified in 1979, prohibits restrictions on freedom of expression on national security grounds unless they are provided by law, strictly construed, and necessary and proportionate to address a legitimate threat. Such laws cannot put the right itself in jeopardy.

    “Prime Minister Narendra Modi is promoting Indian democracy around the world as an attractive market, and yet back home, his administration is cracking down on peaceful dissent,” Ganguly said. “Failing to uphold basic human rights is not a good global message.”

    https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/02/19/...arged-sedition
    I avoided commenting on the growing antics of authorities in India but the past year or so has really painted a clear picture of the priorities of the Hindu nationalists in power. We went from secularist figures being replaced by Hindu nationalists as heads of public institutions to government ministers being vocally empathetic towards the murderers lynching alleged beef eaters, and now students being arrested (and then beaten up in a courthouse) for a peaceful protest.
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    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    The speech that is apparently "sedition"..

    We are of this country and love the soil of India: Full text of Kanhaiya Kumar’s speech


    Speech made by JNUSU president on JNU campus, February 10

    They are the people who burn the tricolour; they are the stooges of Savarkar, who apologised to the British. They are the people who, right now, in Haryana, run the Khattar government that has renamed after a Sanghi an airport named after Shaheed Bhagat Singh. The upshot is, we don’t need a certificate of patriotism from the RSS. We don’t need the RSS to certify us as nationalists.

    We are of this country and love the soil of India. We fight for those 80 per cent of this country’s people who are poor. For us, this is desh bhakti. We have full faith in Babasaheb. We have full faith in our country’s Constitution. And we want to firmly assert that if anyone lifts a finger against this country’s Constitution — whether the Sanghis or anyone else — we won’t tolerate it. We have faith in the Constitution. But we have no faith in the constitution that is taught at Jhandelwala and Nagpur. We have no faith in the Manusmriti. We have no faith in or trust in the deep-rooted caste system in this country. That very Constitution, that same Babasaheb Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar, talk about constitutional remedies in the Constitution. That same Babasaheb Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar talked about abolishing capital punishment. That same Babasaheb Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar talked of freedom of expression. We uphold the Constitution. We want to uphold our basic right, our constitutional right.

    But it is a matter of great shame, a matter of great sorrow, that today, the ABVP, with its media partners, is orchestrating a campaign. It is diluting issues. Yesterday,
    the ABVP’s joint secretary said that they fight for fellowships. It is so ridiculous to hear this because their government, Madam Manu-Smriti Irani, cut fellowships and
    the ABVP says “We fight for fellowships”. Their government has cut the higher education budget by 17 per cent. Our hostel hasn’t been built in four years. We
    haven’t got wifi till date. One bus was given to us by Bhel — but the administration doesn’t have money to pay for fuel. The ABVP’s people take photographs like Dev
    Anand in front of rollers and say that they are getting hostels made and bringing wifi and increasing fellowships. Their lies will be exposed, friends, if there is a
    debate in this country on fundamental questions. And I am proud that we JNU-ites discuss and raise fundamental questions.

    [Subramanian] Swamy says that there are jihadis in JNU. He says that people at JNU spread violence. On behalf of JNU, I challenge RSS pracharaks to come and debate with us. We want to debate on the concept of violence. And we want to raise questions. We want to raise questions on the ABVP’s slogan that says “khoon se
    tilak karenge, goliyon se aarti”. Whose blood do you want to let flow in this country? You have offered bullets, alongside the British, and used them against
    people who were fighting for this country’s independence. When the poor in this country demand food, when people dying of starvation talk of their rights, you use
    bullets against them. You have used bullets against Muslims. And against women when they raise the issue of their rights. You say that the five fingers of a hand
    cannot be equal, that women should live like Sita and should have to go through trials by fire like Sita. But there is democracy in this country, and democracy gives
    everyone the right to equality. Whether they be a student or a karamchari or a poor person or a worker or a farmer or Ambani or Adani; everybody has equal rights. So when we talk about women’s right to equality, they say that we want to ruin Indian culture. We do want to trash traditions of exploitation, casteism (jaativad), Manuvad and Brahmanwad.

    So why are they so uncomfortable? They have a problem when the people of this country talk about democracy. When people do a neela salaam along with a lal
    salaam. When alongside Marx, people talk about Babasaheb Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar. When people talk of Ashfaqulla Khan, then they can’t tolerate it.

    They are conspiring, they are stooges of the British. Come, bring a case of defamation against me. I say that the RSS’s history is the history of standing strong
    with the British. And these traitors of the nation today distribute certificates of desh bhakti. Check my mobile, friends, they are viciously abusing my mother and sister.
    Of which Bharat Mata do you speak if my mother is not part of this Bharat Mata? I do not agree with that Bharat Mata concept. My mother is an anganwadi worker.
    My family survives on Rs 3,000. And they are abusing my mother. I am ashamed that the mothers of the poor, workers, Dalits, farmers of this country are not part of
    Bharat Mata. I will hail Bharat’s many matas, fathers, sisters, farmers, workers, Dalits, Adivasis. If you have the guts, then say “inquilab zindabad”. Say “Long live
    Bhagat Singh”. Say “Long Live Sukhdev”. Say “Long live Ashfaqulla Khan”. Say “Long live Babasaheb”. Then we will believe that you have faith in this country.

    You do a drama of celebrating Babasaheb’s 125th birth anniversary. If you have the guts, then raise the issues that Babasaheb Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar raised. In this
    country, casteism is the biggest issue. Speak against casteism. Bring reservation. Bring reservation in the private sector.

    This nations was never yours — and will never be yours. A nation is made of its people. If the nation doesn’t have space for the hungry, the poor, the workers, then
    it is not a nation. Yesterday, I was saying this at a TV debate to Deepak Chaurasiaji: “Chaurasiaji this is a sombre moment, remember this”. Even the media won’t be
    safe from the way fascism is creeping in this country. The media will get scripts written at the Sangh offices — just like it used to get scripts written at the Congress
    offices in Indira Gandhi’s time. Remember this.

    If you really want to show your desh bhakti. Some media people were saying that JNU runs on taxpayer money, on subsidy. Yes, this is true. JNU runs on taxpayer
    money. It runs on subsidy. But a question arises: What is a university for? A university is there to critically analyse society’s “common conscience”. To promote
    critical thinking. If universities fail in this job then there can be no nation, there will be no people’s participation. The country will only be fodder for capitalists. It’ll
    only be fodder for loot and exploitation. If the people’s culture, values, rights are not included, then there will be no nation. We stand by this country and that dream
    that Bhagat Singh and Babasaheb Bhimrao Ambedkar saw. We stand by the dream of equality for all, the dream of the right to live, the right to food, water and shelter. We stand by these dreams. Rohith gave his life to stand by these dreams. But I want to tell these Sanghis, shame on your government. I challenge the Central government, what you did in Rohith’s case, we won’t let happen in JNU. We will remember Rohith’s sacrifice. We stand by the side of freedom of expression.

    Forget Pakistan and Bangladesh, we say that the whole world’s poor should unite, workers should unite. We salute the humanity of the world, the humanity of India.
    We have today identified the group that stands against this humanity. This is the most serious issue before us today. We must not forget this identification. That face
    of casteism, that face of Manuvad, that face of the alliance between Brahmanwad and capitalism. We have to expose these faces. Real democracy, real freedom,
    everyone’s freedom is what we want to establish in this country.

    That freedom will come and it will come with the Constitution, Parliament and democracy. That’s why I beseech all my friends to set aside their differences. We
    have to safeguard our freedom of expression, our Constitution, our country. We have to stay united to keep the country together, to counter the divisive forces —
    the forces that give shelter to terrorists.

    Who is Kasab? Who is Afzal Guru? Who are these people who have reached a point that they are willing to blow themselves up? If this question is not raised in a
    university then I don’t think there is any point in having a university.

    If we don’t define violence, how do you see violence? Violence is not just killing people with guns. Violence also occurs when the JNU administration refuses to
    honour the rights given to Dalits by the Constitution. That is called institutional violence. These people talk about justice. Who will decide what is justice? When
    Brahmanism was dominant, Dalits were not allowed to enter temples. At that time, that was justice. During British colonial rule, dogs and Indians were not allowed to
    enter restaurants. At that time, that was justice. We challenged this justice. And today as well, we challenge the RSS and the ABVP’s notion of justice.

    If your notion of justice does not accommodate my notion of justice, then we won’t accept your concept of justice. We won’t accept your concept of freedom. We will
    consider this country free when everyone gets their constitutional rights. When every individual in this country is equal under the Constitution, then we will accept
    that there is justice.

    The JNUSU does not support any violence, any terrorist , any terror attack, any anti national activity. I want to reassert this in no uncertain terms. There are some
    unidentified people who have raised the slogan of “Pakistan zindabad”. The JNUSU strongly denounces them.

    I also want to share a question for the JNU administration and the ABVP. A thousand things happen in this campus. Please listen carefully to the ABVP slogans. They say “communist kutte [dogs]”, they say “Afzal Guru ke pille [puppies]”, they say “jihadiyon ke bachhe [children]”. Don’t you agree that if this Constitution has
    given us the rights of a citizen, then calling my father a dog, is it not the trampling of our constitutional rights? I ask this to the ABVP. I want to ask this question to the JNU administration: Who do you work for? Who do you work with? And on what basis do you work?

    Today it has become absolutely clear that the JNU administration first gives permission. Then, after receiving a call from Nagpur, it takes back its permission. This process of granting and retracting permission has become just as frequent as the process of granting and retracting fellowships. Like they first announce an increase in fellowships and then turn around to say fellowships have been stopped. This is the Sanghi pattern. This is the RSS-ABVP pattern. The pattern on which they want to run this country. And they run the JNU administration on the same pattern.

    We want to question the JNU VC. There were posters displayed in JNU, pamphlets distributed in the mess. If you had a problem, then you should not have given permission. But once you gave the permission, the JNU administration must clarify what caused it to take it back.

    I also want to tell you the truth about these people. Please don’t hate them because we cannot hate anyone. In fact, I pity them. They are cock-a-hoop. Why? They believe that just like Gajendra Chauhan was made to sit [as the head of the FTII], they will get a Chauhan, diwan and farman. They think they will send farmans and they will keep getting jobs with these farmans. That is why, when they yell “Bharat Mata ki jai”, you should immediately understand that they are about to appear in an interview. But as soon as they get the job, they will forget about patriotism and Bharat Mata. Forget the tricolour, which they never recognised, they won’t even honour the saffron flag.

    I want to ask them, what kind of patriotism is this? If an employer doesn’t treat the employee well, if the farmer does not treat the labourer well, if the capitalist doesn’t treat his employees properly, and all these TV journalist who work for Rs 15,000, even your CEO does not treat them properly.

    The ABVP-RSS’s patriotism is limited to an India-Pakistan match. That’s why when they are out on the streets, they mistreat the fruit-seller. When the fruit-seller says, “Sahib, the bananas are Rs 40 a dozen”, they hurl an abuse and say, “You people are looting us. We will give only Rs 30”. But what will happen the day the fruit-seller turns around to say, “You are the biggest looter. You have looted crores”? Then, they will label him anti-national.

    I know a lot of friends in the ABVP. I often ask them, “Do you really feel patriotic?” They say, “What to do? The government is for five years. Two years have gone by. Three years’ talk time is left. Whatever we have to do, we will do in these remaining years.” So I tell them that if you lie about JNU, then tomorrow someone might catch your collar too. Perhaps it will be one of your friends who will do that, the kind who checks beef in trains. He’ll catch you and lynch you and tell you that you are anti-national because you are a JNU-ite. Do you understand the danger in what you are doing? They say, we understand this and that is why we oppose #JNUShutdown.

    I said that’s great. First create the atmosphere for #JNUShutdown and then oppose it because you have to stay in JNU. That’s why I want to tell all JNU-ites, there will be an election in March and the ABVP will come to you with the Om symbol. Please tell them, “We are anti-nationals, jihadi terrorists. If you take our vote you will also become anti-national.”

    Make sure you say this. Then they will say, “No, no, it’s not you. Those were some other people.” Then ask them, “Why did you not say that those were some other people [and not the whole of JNU] before the media? Why didn’t your VC say that? Why isn’t your registrar saying that?”

    And what about those few people? Are they saying that we did not raise the slogans of “Pakistan zindabad”? Aren’t those few people saying that we are not in favour of terrorism? Aren’t those few people saying that retracting permission, which was duly acquired, is an attack on their democratic rights? Those few people are saying that if a battle is being fought in some part of the country, then we will stand by it. They will never understand this small thing.

    But I am sure that people who have assembled here on short notice, they are getting this. And you people will go to each student of this campus. The ABVP is trying to break this country, it is trying to break JNU. We won’t let JNU be divided. Long live JNU! All the struggles that are currently on in the country, JNU will holeheartedly
    participate in them and strengthen the voice of democracy, voice of independence, strengthen the freedom of expression.

    We will go forward. We will struggle and we will win and defeat the traitors of this city. With these words, I appeal for unity.

    Jai Bhim, lal salaam!

    http://indianexpress.com/article/opi...this-sedition/
    A political far left communist speech against far right Hindu nationalist parties. Seems like the Modi government and their far right political thugs have now started to utilize state machinery to harass, intimidate and silence their political opponents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    I avoided commenting on the growing antics of authorities in India but the past year or so has really painted a clear picture of the priorities of the Hindu nationalists in power. ...
    There is a thread on this topic at http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=66314

    When the threads get merged, it also would be helpful if you can clarify whether you are criticizing (a) the current government for serving back to the Leftists the same meal they were served when Left-leaning parties were in power and dominated the higher-echelons of the bureaucracy and academia, or (b) the whole action-reaction cycle of ruling governments misusing public money to fund ideologically-motivated public institutions, selective prosecutions, dereliction of public security, etc.

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    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    There is a thread on this topic at http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=66314

    When the threads get merged...
    I don't see the link between what that thread is espousing compared to the topic on hand; the repression of free speech and expression.

    it also would be helpful if you can clarify whether you are criticizing (a) the current government for serving back to the Leftists the same meal they were served when Left-leaning parties were in power and dominated the higher-echelons of the bureaucracy and academia, or (b) the whole action-reaction cycle of ruling governments misusing public money to fund ideologically-motivated public institutions, selective prosecutions, dereliction of public security, etc.
    Are you asking me or are providing an excuse as to why the current government's repression of basic human rights is justified? If you're asking; I have a problem with one bully being replaced with another, even uglier bully. Also, I find the hypocrisy of the right wing critics of previous government's arm twisting ironical, having now become the cheerleaders of the current government's heavy handedness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    I don't see the link between what that thread is espousing compared to the topic on hand; the repression of free speech and expression.
    It is the same person and the same incident, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Are you asking me or are providing an excuse as to why the current government's repression of basic human rights is justified? If you're asking; I have a problem with one bully being replaced with another, even uglier bully. Also, I find the hypocrisy of the right wing critics of previous government's arm twisting ironical, having now become the cheerleaders of the current government's heavy handedness.
    Asking you. Because the next question -- after we've established that all parties abuse power when in the government -- is, what is your solution? That is the only way to have a constructive dialogue.

    My opinion, as I have expressed in the other thread, is to reduce the powers of the government -- both in disbursing public funds to elitist universities, and in formulating and executing laws that restrict freedoms in name of security. Otherwise the cycle continues -- today one party is in power and certain people feel oppressed, tomorrow another party will be in power and other people will feel the same.

  6. #6
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    It is the same person and the same incident, isn't it?
    I do not want to knock that thread off topic, away from critique of "Indian left wing loonies" or the funding of education institutions which produces them. I believe the topic at hand here is quite different.


    Asking you. Because the next question -- after we've established that all parties abuse power when in the government -- is, what is your solution? That is the only way to have a constructive dialogue.
    In India, you have a populist, socialist party which indulged in censorships and clamped down on freedom of expressions on one hand and on the other you have a right wing, Hindu nationalist party which has started it's own campaign of censorships, and restrictions on free speech and even religion. In essence, a tug of war between two sides of the same coin over control of who gets to play overlord. India is far from being a liberal democracy, for individual freedoms are institutionally trampled by the powers in government. The people who were yesterday protesting the previous government's clampdown on individual liberties are today celebrating the current government doing the same, simply because it's now 'their' party's turn to play king.

    The long term solution would obviously have to be from the ground up when a greater section of Indians get exposed to 21st century ideals and ideas. This isn't about lefties or righties but about fundamental rights of citizens. It comes when a society is educated enough or "enlightened" to understand the meaning of individual freedoms. India is still an aliberal society for the simple fact that it has never really gone through an age of enlightenment as Western society has. That is one of the reasons that in India, the government allows communal groups to take precedence over individual freedoms. It's the one reason why Taslima Nasrin was safer to express her individual views in the UK than in India, Bangladesh or anywhere else in South Asia.

    The short term solution; stand up against oppression and for individual liberties whenever they are oppressed. Educate people on what individual freedoms mean.

    That's my 2 cents.


    My opinion, as I have expressed in the other thread, is to reduce the powers of the government -- both in disbursing public funds to elitist universities,
    I agree that there should be less government but why does the topic of public funds to elitist universities props up now? What is the connection between a student being unlawfully arrested by authoritarian government and public funds to elitist universities? It's not that I disagree with you, but I cannot draw the parallels between the two cases. I mean, BJP's duplicity regarding it's stance on populist subsidies and schemes should be critiqued, but that's a whole another topic.


    and in formulating and executing laws that restrict freedoms in name of security.
    So you want more laws for the government to be able to restrict freedoms or did you mean laws to protect individual freedoms?
    Last edited by Tronic; 21 Feb 16, at 00:17.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    Just a quick observation:

    The title of that thread betrays its intention. With a name like "Indian Left Wing Loonies Hijack Entire University, Media, Govt and Country for 1 Week", what do you think the intended discussion is about?

    It's a presumptuous and loaded title meant to sway the discussion before it even began. It alone tells us:
    1. The political affiliation of the people involved
    2. That these people are loonies
    3. That they hijacked an entire University and consequently the Media, Govt and ultimately the country
    4. The duration of their misadventure


    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this and these people, the obvious loonies they are, deserve to be thrashed by mobs comprising the people responsible for interpreting law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    I agree that there should be less government but why does the topic of public funds to elitist universities props up now? What is the connection between a student being unlawfully arrested by authoritarian government and public funds to elitist universities? It's not that I disagree with you, but I cannot draw the parallels between the two cases. I mean, BJP's duplicity regarding it's stance on populist subsidies and schemes should be critiqued, but that's a whole another topic.
    The issue of governmental overreach, public funds and accountability has ALWAYS there. The current government, and the PM in particular, came into power on the plank of "minimum government, maximum government" -- so you should hold them accountable according to their own metrics: What business does the government have in running film institutes and liberal arts colleges? Why is it wasting political, diplomatic and financial capital trying to fill those useless places with its lackeys to push its political agenda? Why is it not divesting itself from such institutions, recovering whatever funds it can, and using it for better governance or giving it back to the tax-payers?

    The real fight is ALWAYS over resources and patronage; the ideology is a mask/camouflage. There are no parallels between the two issues -- they are one and the same thing.

    The only way to protect you freedoms from your government is to limit the resources you give it, and keep them accountable to the resources they do get. This also applies to the prosecutors and the police (also paid by public funds), who should be held accountable to clearing X% of case backlogs every year and measured against common law-and-order metrics; that will automatically bring down their appetite for such frivolous and unwinnable prosecutions.

    Come on, Tronic, you are an engineer -- what is all this liberalism, age of enlightenment, fighting the Man, blah, blah, blah BS? The government has a contract with you -- all you need it do is deliver a minimum viable product, within the defined tolerance specs, on time and on budget. If you get a contractor to build you a bathroom, would you allow him to debate the pros/cons of different kitchen cabinets with your gf/wife? Do Indians really need to know about John Locke or Voltaire to avoid going down that road?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    The title of that thread betrays its intention. With a name like "Indian Left Wing Loonies Hijack Entire University, Media, Govt and Country for 1 Week", what do you think the intended discussion is about?
    Of course I know what anil wants to pitch, and I'm willing to play along to a certain extent. After that I want him to explain how is the government (and his) position fundamentally different from the Left wing loonies'? Aren't they also trying to hijack public institutions for their own political agenda? Wasting public funds? Tarnishing the image? Otherwise these two threads will keep talking past each other.

    Facts:
    1. Both threads are about the recent controversies at the Jawahar Lal Nehru University (JNU)
    2. anil's thread was posted first
    3. It is harder to track conversations in two threads on the same topic
    4. Ultimately it a moderator's discretion to merge threads, and he/she can also moderate the thread titles

  10. #10
    Contributor anil's Avatar
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    C,

    You shouldn't put much effort in changing some positions which cannot be changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    Of course I know what anil wants to pitch, and I'm willing to play along to a certain extent. After that I want him to explain how is the government (and his) position fundamentally different from the Left wing loonies'? Aren't they also trying to hijack public institutions for their own political agenda? Wasting public funds? Tarnishing the image? Otherwise these two threads will keep talking past each other.

    Facts:
    1. Both threads are about the recent controversies at the Jawahar Lal Nehru University (JNU)
    2. anil's thread was posted first
    3. It is harder to track conversations in two threads on the same topic
    4. Ultimately it a moderator's discretion to merge threads, and he/she can also moderate the thread titles
    By all means, I'm agreeing with you. Mine was just a reason for why I personally refrained from participating in that thread.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    [*]Ultimately it a moderator's discretion to merge threads, and he/she can also moderate the thread titles
    Good luck with that. Unless one of you blokes request it, we have absolutely zero clue as to why or why not they should be merged.
    Chimo

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Good luck with that. Unless one of you blokes request it, we have absolutely zero clue as to why or why not they should be merged.
    It is okay, colonel. I'm on call all this weekend, watching the paint dry, and just BS-ing around.

  14. #14
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    The issue of governmental overreach, public funds and accountability has ALWAYS there. The current government, and the PM in particular, came into power on the plank of "minimum government, maximum government" -- so you should hold them accountable according to their own metrics: What business does the government have in running film institutes and liberal arts colleges? Why is it wasting political, diplomatic and financial capital trying to fill those useless places with its lackeys to push its political agenda? Why is it not divesting itself from such institutions, recovering whatever funds it can, and using it for better governance or giving it back to the tax-payers?

    The real fight is ALWAYS over resources and patronage; the ideology is a mask/camouflage. There are no parallels between the two issues -- they are one and the same thing.

    The only way to protect you freedoms from your government is to limit the resources you give it, and keep them accountable to the resources they do get. This also applies to the prosecutors and the police (also paid by public funds), who should be held accountable to clearing X% of case backlogs every year and measured against common law-and-order metrics; that will automatically bring down their appetite for such frivolous and unwinnable prosecutions.
    We already know this is the same populist government in a Hindu nationalist garb, and we can dissect that if we want, but this is again trying to change the discourse of the discussion.

    You still haven't explained how police illegally arresting a student and then having vigilantes thrash him in a courtroom is a precursor to discussing Indian government's economic policies? Would this still have been the case if the person being harassed didn't hold left wing leaning and wasn't studying in a government funded institution? Is this some twisted way to play 'blame the victim'? 'If only he didn't study in a government funded university, this wouldn't have happened?' The blatant attempts to brush the trampling of civil rights under the carpet by changing the entire discourse of discussion to government's economic policies is appalling.


    Come on, Tronic, you are an engineer -- what is all this liberalism, age of enlightenment, fighting the Man, blah, blah, blah BS? The government has a contract with you -- all you need it do is deliver a minimum viable product, within the defined tolerance specs, on time and on budget. If you get a contractor to build you a bathroom, would you allow him to debate the pros/cons of different kitchen cabinets with your gf/wife? Do Indians really need to know about John Locke or Voltaire to avoid going down that road?
    Liberalism, age of enlightenment, et al. is BS? And this is you who is saying this; an Indian immigrant practicing law in the United States? You do realize the entire foundation of modern western civilization and the roots of capitalist society are based on the ideals of liberalism, do you not? Talking so vaguely of the social contract means nothing without dissecting exactly what civil rights are being traded for which security? The social contract in North Korea differs greatly from the social contract in the United States.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

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    Trading rights for security? Some pesky westerner had to say something about it
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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