Originally posted by zraver
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Patton's Third Army in the Pacific instead of Europe
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Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostJason, thinking about this. No, I don't think so. Even when he lost, Zuhkov won. Vatutin sufferred the same kind of losses but the difference is that his oppenants can still mount a defence for the next campaign. Not so with Zuhkov. Every battle Zuhkov lost, the Germans were obliged to give up ground to consolidate their defences.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostVatutin was part of the Lenningrad battle and the comparison was between the two. Operation MARS collapsed the Stalingrad relief.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostMars was a disaster
Originally posted by zraver View Postand at Lenningrad, Vatutin was the only senior Soviet commander to really give the Germans fits.Chimo
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here's a thought experiment: wonder what would have happened if Zhukov and Konev were Germans, with Manstein and Guderian being the Russians.
this is a bit reminiscent of the "what if Lee and Grant had switched places" discussion we had a long time ago.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by astralis View Posthere's a thought experiment: wonder what would have happened if Zhukov and Konev were Germans, with Manstein and Guderian being the Russians.
this is a bit reminiscent of the "what if Lee and Grant had switched places" discussion we had a long time ago."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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Originally posted by gunnut View PostThe results would probably be the same. Zhukov would learn to use German tradition of well trained troops and execute more complex tactical maneuvers. Manstein and Guderian would learn to use deep operations as they have more man power available to them. These were very smart men. I am sure they can adapt to whatever constraints the environment throws at them.Last edited by Monash; 25 Feb 16,, 12:13.If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.
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The US had a Guderian or Manstein.They put him in charge of a fictional AG.Deception is good.
The Soviets just used pseudonyms or simply lied about the whereabouts of the likes of Zhukov,Rokosovsky or Konev.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Originally posted by Monash View PostI think the real tragedy for both sets of Generals is that they were all saddled with deeply flawed and dysfunctional heads of state. Imagine what they all could have achieved under a Roosevelt or a Churchill!
At Leningrad he ordered taking hostages and executing families of soldiers who surrendered.His attacks are bloodbaths and failures.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Originally posted by astralis View Posthere's a thought experiment: wonder what would have happened if Zhukov and Konev were Germans, with Manstein and Guderian being the Russians.
this is a bit reminiscent of the "what if Lee and Grant had switched places" discussion we had a long time ago.No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWould they achieve anything? FDR needed admirals more than he needed generals as he was getting ready to fight Japan and I cannot see the Brits starting a war of European conquest.If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.
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Originally posted by Monash View PostIts perhaps somewhat of a simplification to say that FDR needed Admirals more than he needed generals. Assuming for the sake of argument that the wars in Europe and the Pacific commenced and progressed more or less as history records then good generals would of course have been required at some point in time for both theaters. In any event my point was that all the Generals named were shackled to despots who were more than ready to ignore economic and military realities in the pursuit of personal power, ignoring, even fearing their best generals. Of course neither FDR or Churchill would have started the war but my point was that both men, once confronted with the realities of WW11 would have made far better use of these generals than either Stalin or Hitler ever could. How much sooner would the war have ended with Zhukov et al fighting on the side of the democracies alongside men like Patton instead of against them."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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Originally posted by Monash View PostIts perhaps somewhat of a simplification to say that FDR needed Admirals more than he needed generals. Assuming for the sake of argument that the wars in Europe and the Pacific commenced and progressed more or less as history records then good generals would of course have been required at some point in time for both theaters. In any event my point was that all the Generals named were shackled to despots who were more than ready to ignore economic and military realities in the pursuit of personal power, ignoring, even fearing their best generals. Of course neither FDR or Churchill would have started the war but my point was that both men, once confronted with the realities of WW11 would have made far better use of these generals than either Stalin or Hitler ever could. How much sooner would the war have ended with Zhukov et al fighting on the side of the democracies alongside men like Patton instead of against them.Chimo
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