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Thread: Patton's Third Army in the Pacific instead of Europe

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    He might be the single most over rated commander of WWII.
    Jason, thinking about this. No, I don't think so. Even when he lost, Zuhkov won. Vatutin sufferred the same kind of losses but the difference is that his oppenants can still mount a defence for the next campaign. Not so with Zuhkov. Every battle Zuhkov lost, the Germans were obliged to give up ground to consolidate their defences.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Jason, thinking about this. No, I don't think so. Even when he lost, Zuhkov won. Vatutin sufferred the same kind of losses but the difference is that his oppenants can still mount a defence for the next campaign. Not so with Zuhkov. Every battle Zuhkov lost, the Germans were obliged to give up ground to consolidate their defences.
    Except Lenningrad or Operation Mars....

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Except Lenningrad or Operation Mars....
    Vatutin was part of the Lenningrad battle and the comparison was between the two. Operation MARS collapsed the Stalingrad relief.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Vatutin was part of the Lenningrad battle and the comparison was between the two. Operation MARS collapsed the Stalingrad relief.
    Mars was a disaster and at Lenningrad, Vatutin was the only senior Soviet commander to really give the Germans fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Mars was a disaster
    It was but again, the Germans sufferred casualties they could not replace.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    and at Lenningrad, Vatutin was the only senior Soviet commander to really give the Germans fits.
    Your point was Vatutin's tactical genius. I don't see it. He sufferred the same casualty rates as other Soviet generals and he could not relieve Lenningrad.
    Chimo

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    here's a thought experiment: wonder what would have happened if Zhukov and Konev were Germans, with Manstein and Guderian being the Russians.

    this is a bit reminiscent of the "what if Lee and Grant had switched places" discussion we had a long time ago.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  7. #112
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    here's a thought experiment: wonder what would have happened if Zhukov and Konev were Germans, with Manstein and Guderian being the Russians.

    this is a bit reminiscent of the "what if Lee and Grant had switched places" discussion we had a long time ago.
    The results would probably be the same. Zhukov would learn to use German tradition of well trained troops and execute more complex tactical maneuvers. Manstein and Guderian would learn to use deep operations as they have more man power available to them. These were very smart men. I am sure they can adapt to whatever constraints the environment throws at them.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    The results would probably be the same. Zhukov would learn to use German tradition of well trained troops and execute more complex tactical maneuvers. Manstein and Guderian would learn to use deep operations as they have more man power available to them. These were very smart men. I am sure they can adapt to whatever constraints the environment throws at them.
    I think the real tragedy for both sets of Generals is that they were all saddled with deeply flawed and dysfunctional heads of state. Imagine what they all could have achieved under a Roosevelt or a Churchill!
    Last edited by Monash; 25 Feb 16, at 12:13.

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    Would they achieve anything? FDR needed admirals more than he needed generals as he was getting ready to fight Japan and I cannot see the Brits starting a war of European conquest.
    Chimo

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    The US had a Guderian or Manstein.They put him in charge of a fictional AG.Deception is good.
    The Soviets just used pseudonyms or simply lied about the whereabouts of the likes of Zhukov,Rokosovsky or Konev.
    Those who know don't speak
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    I think the real tragedy for both sets of Generals is that they were all saddled with deeply flawed and dysfunctional heads of state. Imagine what they all could have achieved under a Roosevelt or a Churchill!
    Write good articles about theory.Reach 3 stars at most.In Zhukov's case maybe become a regimantal commander.Zhukov is a product of Stalinist era.His real merit is terrorizing.
    At Leningrad he ordered taking hostages and executing families of soldiers who surrendered.His attacks are bloodbaths and failures.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    here's a thought experiment: wonder what would have happened if Zhukov and Konev were Germans, with Manstein and Guderian being the Russians.

    this is a bit reminiscent of the "what if Lee and Grant had switched places" discussion we had a long time ago.
    Different cultural mimdsets. Why switch Germans with Russians. Switch Russians and French for a headache
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  13. #118
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Would they achieve anything? FDR needed admirals more than he needed generals as he was getting ready to fight Japan and I cannot see the Brits starting a war of European conquest.
    Its perhaps somewhat of a simplification to say that FDR needed Admirals more than he needed generals. Assuming for the sake of argument that the wars in Europe and the Pacific commenced and progressed more or less as history records then good generals would of course have been required at some point in time for both theaters. In any event my point was that all the Generals named were shackled to despots who were more than ready to ignore economic and military realities in the pursuit of personal power, ignoring, even fearing their best generals. Of course neither FDR or Churchill would have started the war but my point was that both men, once confronted with the realities of WW11 would have made far better use of these generals than either Stalin or Hitler ever could. How much sooner would the war have ended with Zhukov et al fighting on the side of the democracies alongside men like Patton instead of against them.

  14. #119
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    Its perhaps somewhat of a simplification to say that FDR needed Admirals more than he needed generals. Assuming for the sake of argument that the wars in Europe and the Pacific commenced and progressed more or less as history records then good generals would of course have been required at some point in time for both theaters. In any event my point was that all the Generals named were shackled to despots who were more than ready to ignore economic and military realities in the pursuit of personal power, ignoring, even fearing their best generals. Of course neither FDR or Churchill would have started the war but my point was that both men, once confronted with the realities of WW11 would have made far better use of these generals than either Stalin or Hitler ever could. How much sooner would the war have ended with Zhukov et al fighting on the side of the democracies alongside men like Patton instead of against them.
    Well, then someone else will rise to the occasion. There are many smart men in the military. Zhukov rose to where he was because of the purge. Had the purge not happen, there would be others before him to lead the Red Army. Had he been purged, there would be others to take his place.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    Its perhaps somewhat of a simplification to say that FDR needed Admirals more than he needed generals. Assuming for the sake of argument that the wars in Europe and the Pacific commenced and progressed more or less as history records then good generals would of course have been required at some point in time for both theaters. In any event my point was that all the Generals named were shackled to despots who were more than ready to ignore economic and military realities in the pursuit of personal power, ignoring, even fearing their best generals. Of course neither FDR or Churchill would have started the war but my point was that both men, once confronted with the realities of WW11 would have made far better use of these generals than either Stalin or Hitler ever could. How much sooner would the war have ended with Zhukov et al fighting on the side of the democracies alongside men like Patton instead of against them.
    Too many butterflies. Without Guderian and Von Manstein and Rommell and Kesselring, etc Hitler would have been cowed before Austria.
    Chimo

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