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Thread: Patton's Third Army in the Pacific instead of Europe

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Eventually Patton will get close enough to be detected.
    Yes, when he attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Battle of Malaya, Battle of Singapore, Japanese invasion of the DEI, invasion of the Philippines, New Guinea.
    Yes, IJN, not the IJAAF and even here, it was the straw that broke the camel's back, it was not the deciding force. I reference the Chinese for a reason. They were the only division/army size foe the IJAAF fought and they were negliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Third Army had 5 armored divisions, 9 infantry divisions, 1 mechanized cavalry group plus corps assets like independent tank destroyer battalions. Around 1000 AFV's, several hundred guns, a couple thousand half tracks and thousands of trucks, jeeps, and tractors. Patton needed 7,000 tons of supplies a day to keep Third army moving and fighting. 7,000 tons without a rail or pipeline is insurmountable given the distances involved. you would need 3500 truck loads a day. This over a distance of 4-5000km up to 3100 miles. That is before offensive operations begin. Given two way travel you need 220,000 trucks just to keep the supplies moving once the offensive jumps off. Then you need to plan out the route march for each truck company to prevent traffic jams and prioritize the movement of wounded back from the front lines. There is a reason the Soviets with an internal rail line and a lot more experience with overland movement and supply took 6 months to prepare August Storm. Start adding in aircraft few, aircraft bombs etc and the numbers become truly mind boggling. Also unlike the Germans, we did not have dedicated highly efficient rail road building teams that could build track to follow Third Army's advance across Western and Northern China.
    Again, I don't see the problem. Patton could build up unhinderd and unopposed. So, he uses trucks instead of a rail. It's not as though the IJA is going to cut his LOC.

    Hell, the IJA would not even be able to find it. They never found the Chinese LOCs.
    Chimo

  2. #32
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Brilliant if you can solve two problems- winter logistics and the Soviets. A mechanized army with an aggressive anti-communist general on their southern flank is going to have Stalin in fits. He would almost certainly order Mao to do anything and everything to oppose it including team up with the Japanese.
    Mao was a lot of things, but teaming up with Japanese was not one of them. He would lose his popular support, which he needed to solidify his base for the upcoming civil war. Chinese would rather follow a corrupt dictator in Chiang than to follow a collaborator anything.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Yes, when he attacks.

    Yes, IJN, not the IJAAF and even here, it was the straw that broke the camel's back, it was not the deciding force. I reference the Chinese for a reason. They were the only division/army size foe the IJAAF fought and they were negliable.
    Disagree, IJAAF air dominance let a bunch of half starved poorly equipped light infantry rout the Western allies in several locations from India to New Guinea. I referenced IJAAF operations not IJNAF ops.

    Again, I don't see the problem. Patton could build up unhinderd and unopposed. So, he uses trucks instead of a rail. It's not as though the IJA is going to cut his LOC.
    its not going to be a short 10 month time table to build up enough supplies to sustain offensive operations.

    Hell, the IJA would not even be able to find it. They never found the Chinese LOCs.
    They cut the Burma road rather effectively. In this scenario you are having Patton move a mechanized army north out of India and CKS is still going to need supplies so you also have to send him stuff down the same road or fly it over the hump plus support a massive allied air effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Mao was a lot of things, but teaming up with Japanese was not one of them. He would lose his popular support, which he needed to solidify his base for the upcoming civil war. Chinese would rather follow a corrupt dictator in Chiang than to follow a collaborator anything.
    Mao had a long and cozy history with the Japanese. He would feed the Japanese information to harm the nationalist and vice verse. The motto appears to have been use the hand of one enemy to strike the other.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Mao had a long and cozy history with the Japanese. He would feed the Japanese information to harm the nationalist and vice verse. The motto appears to have been use the hand of one enemy to strike the other.
    That may be so, but directly working with Japanese to slow the Americans did not figure into his plan. Remember, everything he did was to further the goal of the communists. A direct confrontation against a vastly superior military organization, at the same time working with what his constituents believed to be their mortal enemy, was not a profitable plan. What would he get out of it?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Disagree, IJAAF air dominance let a bunch of half starved poorly equipped light infantry rout the Western allies in several locations from India to New Guinea. I referenced IJAAF operations not IJNAF ops.
    Battalion and brigade size in concentration. They had zero effect on Chinese divsion and army size formations which is the basis to measure their effect on 3rd Army.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    its not going to be a short 10 month time table to build up enough supplies to sustain offensive operations.
    How is it not going to be a short time table? The only difficulty is terrain and even then, buidling up supply depots is not that difficult. You're following traditional horse calvary routes. You could laid rail in that time. There is zero opposing force in front of you and even if they do know you're there, they can't cross 100s of miles of Chinese held territory to get to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    They cut the Burma road rather effectively. In this scenario you are having Patton move a mechanized army north out of India and CKS is still going to need supplies so you also have to send him stuff down the same road or fly it over the hump plus support a massive allied air effort.
    We're bypassing Burma and going through Tibet here. And we can leave CKS alone. He has no choice in the matter.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Jan 16, at 20:18.
    Chimo

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    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    How can they go across Tibet?Was there any infrastructure beside foot paths?
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    How can they go across Tibet?Was there any infrastructure beside foot paths?
    Not really, the US can build roads, we were as good at that as the Germans were at building rail lines. But its going to be a slow crawl to reach plains suitable for tank warfare. You need to build a two lane road from a northern Indian rail head almost 3000 miles to reach maneuver country. You will need rest stops every few dozen miles and major depots every 2 days truck travel. Certain parts of the road will only be usable a few months a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    How can they go across Tibet?Was there any infrastructure beside foot paths?
    Calvary inavsion routes.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Not really, the US can build roads, we were as good at that as the Germans were at building rail lines. But its going to be a slow crawl to reach plains suitable for tank warfare. You need to build a two lane road from a northern Indian rail head almost 3000 miles to reach maneuver country. You will need rest stops every few dozen miles and major depots every 2 days truck travel. Certain parts of the road will only be usable a few months a year.
    No, you don't. This is China. They have roads already.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Calvary inavsion routes.
    There are no such routes from India to NW China/Inner Mongolia. The Silk Road went through the Gobi. To get to them you either have to build a new route or invade the USSR from Afghanistan.

    No, you don't. This is China. They have roads already.
    Sorry no, rural china in the 30's and 40's did not have a robust all weather road system with bridges able to handle tanks and artillery. Even the US the most prolific road building nation of all time was still mostly seasonal roads in the 40's. You might find roads like you needed for mechanized movement near the coast but you are proposing to cut a never before used route from Northern India across Tibet and north through Western China/Inner Mongolia before reaching the old horse cavalry routes striking East. Heck the Burma road wasn't even built until 1937. china was primarily a river and coastal transport based system.
    Last edited by zraver; 21 Jan 16, at 01:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    There are no such routes from India to NW China/Inner Mongolia. The Silk Road went through the Gobi. To get to them you either have to build a new route or invade the USSR from Afghanistan.
    Sorry, what?

    Jason, you're reaching. I gave you the histoic reference. Tibet has the been throughway fir Central Asia. Central Asia was always a war of horse calvary. The Mongols/Turks subjucated the Dali Lama (which makes the current the Dali Lama a fucking liar if her EVER acknowedged the history.

    Tibet defeated the Tang Dynasty and the Younghusband conquered Tibet.

    History prived your points to be false.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Sorry no, rural china in the 30's and 40's did not have a robust all weather road system with bridges able to handle tanks and artillery.
    Jason, are you serious? It doesn't have to the robust. It just have to exist. The US Army Corps of Engineers will make it work ... especiailly when it existed 200 miles from the nearest Japanese formation.
    Chimo

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    Jason,

    You're actually reaching. Imagine yourself in Patton's Staff. Gen Patton gave this order to be in Beijing in 6 months. Are you going to say no or are you going to make it happen?
    Chimo

  13. #43
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    We're bypassing Burma and going through Tibet here. And we can leave CKS alone. He has no choice in the matter.
    I missed something huge somewhere.

    Moving Patton's armor through Tibet? How? Who's in charge of logistics, Mandrake the Magician?

    ADD: I've been in Southwest Yunnan and Northern Burma. The Naga Hills are mule country, not armor. Further West? What's a tank's altitude ceiling? The Mongols and Turks were on the Northern side of the Himalays; Patton would be coming through India, from the South.

    Ignoring Chiang, and Washington (Soong Mei-ling's speciality)? How? Did Henry Luce vanish?

    Burma's rainy season lasts plenty long -- close enough to 10 months of bad (if any) roads per year. The Japanese knew that, and they knew how to live in the jungle far better than General Patton.

    I'm not buying the entire thing.
    Last edited by DOR; 21 Jan 16, at 08:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Moving Patton's armor through Tibet? How? Who's in charge of logistics, Mandrake the Magician?
    Younghusband. And who dragged artillery and the equivlent of 2 divisions in the 1962 War.

    If you can fight a brigade level war there, you can move an army through there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Ignoring Chiang, and Washington (Soong Mei-ling's speciality)? How? Did Henry Luce vanish?
    The same way we did in WWII. Give them tokens and pat them on the head. Chiang's gang got squat all when compared to Eisenhower, Nimitz, and MacArthur.

    I really don't care if you're not buying the whole thing. You have absolutely zero concepts of what zero opposition means.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 21 Jan 16, at 15:57.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Sorry, what?

    Jason, you're reaching. I gave you the histoic reference. Tibet has the been throughway fir Central Asia. Central Asia was always a war of horse calvary. The Mongols/Turks subjucated the Dali Lama (which makes the current the Dali Lama a fucking liar if her EVER acknowedged the history.
    Sir the cavalry route is via the Khyber Pass and the Hindu Kush, not from India into Tibet

    [quote]Tibet defeated the Tang Dynasty and the Younghusband conquered Tibet.[/qupte]

    It took 7000 infantry over a year to reach Lassa

    History prived your points to be false.
    You are on the wrong side of the map sir.

    Jason, are you serious? It doesn't have to the robust. It just have to exist. The US Army Corps of Engineers will make it work ... especiailly when it existed 200 miles from the nearest Japanese formation.
    Sir, it has to be robust enough to support a mechanized army. At a minimum for non combat you're gonna need 3-4 2 lane all weather roads. Something China doesn't have at the time. China might have the tracks that can be expanded, but now you've upped the logistics requirements by a huge percentage. You've already got close to 300,000 vehicles between the actual divisions, corps and army assets of Third Army plus the massive supply chain truck fleet and now you need to add the equivalent for 3-4 AlCan Highway building operations and all the logistical support those operations with need. Its not even about enemy action. Russia may have had Generals Winter and Mud, Japan will have General Distance. You are talking a logistical effort equal to the entire ETO to support just one army.

    Jason,

    You're actually reaching. Imagine yourself in Patton's Staff. Gen Patton gave this order to be in Beijing in 6 months. Are you going to say no or are you going to make it happen?
    Sir, in this scenario the logistics are the real problem. We know the Japanese can't stop a mechanized army. The problem is getting that mechanized army into position. It took the Soviets 6 months and they had 1/3 of their force already positions and years of experience in planning major operations away from ports/centers of production.

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