Page 3 of 19 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 279

Thread: Oil is at a 12-year low

  1. #31
    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
    Join Date
    23 Nov 11
    Location
    Burlington, ON
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    How clean do you, or I, want our air? I remember we used to have "smog alerts" in LA. They were ranked from stage 1 to stage 3. I haven't seen one in more than 25 years. The air has not been cleaner since probably the early 20th century in LA.
    If not in North America, folks over in China and India would surely want much cleaner air!! Business opportunity?

    I don't care how expensive electric cars are. I care that these luxury cars are subsidized directly with my tax dollars.

    I saw the Model X. It's a large car. It ain't gonna be cheap enough for the "middle class" family.
    I was talking about the Model 3. It will be out in a couple of years. Expected price around the 35K mark. You know what else is subsidized by the Government? Can we compare the oil subsidies vs the environment subsidies?

    Yes. And we export that emissions elsewhere. Most of electricity in the US comes from fossil fuel plants, a large portion of them being coal. Can't build more dams, because the fish need water. Can't build more nuke plants because they are too dangerous. Can't build more fossil fuel plants because of air pollution. Let's build more wind farms and solar plants. Wind farms are sporatic and solar plants work about 4 hours per day. Both are environmental disasters. They take up huge chunks of land and kill animals like you wouldn't believe.

    Oil is still the most economical fuel source we have, bar none. It is easy to transport, easy to store, and easy to convert to another form of energy. We have a huge infrastructure built already. Replacing it will cost money. Money represents resources. Resources mean more materials and energy used for construction. Why construct something new when the old one works fine? It's as stupid as throwing away a perfectly good used car and replacing it with a new hybrid to save the planet. The net gain is negative with all the energy spent in the destruction of the old car and the construction of the new car.
    Agreed. Oil is a finite resource though not sure why you think it'll be there forever.

    Just to add, I drive a 1.8L stick shift car as my daily driver. It gets 28mpg and is 15 years old. I don't even drive that much. My work is 10 miles away from me and I average about 11k miles per year.

  2. #32
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    23,777
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    If not in North America, folks over in China and India would surely want much cleaner air!! Business opportunity?
    I don't care about their regulations and their pollution problems. I care about what we have here and how we waste our money.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    I was talking about the Model 3. It will be out in a couple of years. Expected price around the 35K mark. You know what else is subsidized by the Government? Can we compare the oil subsidies vs the environment subsidies?
    Ah, the Model 3. I had mistaken it for the Model X. I apologize. But still, at $35k, it's not affordable for the "middle class working family." Kia Soul EV is $32k. It does not make sense to have it as a primary car due to the short range, nor a 2nd commuter car because of the cost (for middle class).

    Again, I am not against developing electric cars or people buying them. I'm against tax subsidies for what essentially is a richman's toy right now. Technically, Porsche 918 and McLaren P1 qualify for the $7500 tax rebate. WHY? That's the stupidest rebate I can think of.

    Oil is subsidized. Oil is also subject to enormous and incredibly onerous environmental regulations. There hasn't be a new refinery built in the US since the 1970s. Every single refinery we have today is 40 years or older. There's only so much we can do to upgrade them and keep them running. They are at capacity right now. Whenever there's a disruption, the price goes up. And disruptions show up every single year when refineries need to shut down for maintenance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    Agreed. Oil is a finite resource though not sure why you think it'll be there forever.
    Oil is by all intents and purposes, infinite. There will always be oil at the right price. When oil surpasses other forms of energy in cost, then we will switch to other forms of energy. That expensive oil is still underground. We won't extract it because it doesn't make economical sense.

    So far, oil is on my side. We have so much of this stuff people don't know what to do with it. This is after oil hit $140+ a barrel in 2007/8.
    Last edited by gunnut; 14 Jan 16, at 19:58.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  3. #33
    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
    Join Date
    23 Nov 11
    Location
    Burlington, ON
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Ah, the Model 3. I had mistaken it for the Model X. I apologize. But still, at $35k, it's not affordable for the "middle class working family." Kia Soul EV is $32k. It does not make sense to have it as a primary car due to the short range, nor a 2nd commuter car because of the cost (for middle class).
    Isn't this a good enough reason for these subsidies to exist? Electric cars are expensive compared to I.C.E. cars.

    Again, I am not against developing electric cars or people buying them. I'm against tax subsidies for what essentially is a richman's toy right now. Technically, Porsche 918 and McLaren P1 qualify for the $7500 tax rebate. WHY? That's the stupidest rebate I can think of.

    Oil is subsidized. Oil is also subject to enormous and incredibly onerous environmental regulations. There hasn't be a new refinery built in the US since the 1970s. Every single refinery we have today is 40 years or older. There's only so much we can do to upgrade them and keep them running. They are at capacity right now. Whenever there's a disruption, the price goes up. And disruptions show up every single year when refineries need to shut down for maintenance.
    I don't know this but is the electric car subsidy bill even big enough to make a dent on the government's overall expenditure? What's the harm anyway? How does it fare against some of the other subsidy bills? Does this affect the oil industry negatively? If not why the hate?

    Oil is by all intents and purposes, infinite. There will always be oil at the right price. When oil surpasses other forms of energy in cost, then we will switch to other forms of energy. That expensive oil is still underground. We won't extract it because it doesn't make economical sense.

    So far, oil is on my side. We have so much of this stuff people don't know what to do with it. This is after oil hit $140+ a barrel in 2007/8.
    Which means it's still finite in its desirability as a primary fuel source which over time is going down due to increased costs in acquiring it.

  4. #34
    Military Professional
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    29,353
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    So you are saying we need to improve on this technology until it reaches parity with and eventually exceeds conventional cars. How do we do this? Forget climate change/global warming, wouldn't you want to live in a relatively less polluted city/town? Guess what helps reduce air pollution in the vicinity of people's homes.

    ...

    Don't you think electric cars being the second car of choice for most people will help reduce local emissions?
    1 joule is still 1 joule. There is no magical way to get around this be it electric or ICE and you're just switching pollution to another source. Stack pipe instead of tailpipe. Ground water pollution (dead and dying batteries) instead of air pollution.

    This is not the magic cheap environmental friendly car that is touted to be. You're just switching pollution sources.
    Chimo

  5. #35
    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
    Join Date
    23 Nov 11
    Location
    Burlington, ON
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    1 joule is still 1 joule. There is no magical way to get around this be it electric or ICE and you're just switching pollution to another source. Stack pipe instead of tailpipe. Ground water pollution (dead and dying batteries) instead of air pollution.

    This is not the magic cheap environmental friendly car that is touted to be.
    This might sound selfish but this way we are moving the pollution source away from our homes. Isn't dealing with more pollution in designated/confined areas easier than having less pollution all over the place?

    You're just switching pollution sources.
    Which pollution sources are more manageable?
    Last edited by DarthSiddius; 14 Jan 16, at 21:40.

  6. #36
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    23,777
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    This might sound selfish but this way we are moving the pollution source away from our homes. Isn't dealing with more pollution in designated/confined areas easier than having less pollution all over the place?
    We started doing that years ago. We offshored our factory pollution to China. Tee hee....
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  7. #37
    Military Professional
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    29,353
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    This might sound selfish but this way we are moving the pollution source away from our homes. Isn't dealing with more pollution in designated/confined areas easier than having less pollution all over the place?
    Ground water contamination. It's far harder to get to than letting trees eat the smog.
    Chimo

  8. #38
    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
    Join Date
    23 Nov 11
    Location
    Burlington, ON
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Ground water contamination. It's far harder to get to than letting trees eat the smog.
    Which tells us that these technologies need more work and research. It is a given, battery tech. needs to step up. Providing government assistance in this case (in terms of subsidies) is a good thing especially to entities doing research. As far as convenience is considered batteries lag far behind as compared to a traditional tank of gas.

    Is there a way to safely dispose of batteries with minimal contamination?
    Last edited by DarthSiddius; 14 Jan 16, at 23:55.

  9. #39
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    10 Nov 04
    Location
    Wellington, Te Ika a Maui, Aotearoa
    Posts
    19,744
    Get rid of catalytic converters on cars and most of the current 'pollution' problems associated with fossil fuel engines go away, plus you get greater efficiency. Added bonus, all that money on research can instead go to the poor.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility

    Gottfried Leibniz

  10. #40
    Military Professional
    Join Date
    06 Aug 03
    Posts
    29,353
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthSiddius View Post
    Is there a way to safely dispose of batteries with minimal contamination?
    I got a guy who tried the solar panel thing for his house. Lasted about a year before he switched back to hydro. The maintenance finally got to him. He has 10+ car batteries sitting out in the open. Imagine this a million times over in your neck of the world. Is the regular household going to properly take care of battery storage ... or wherever he has room?
    Chimo

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Aug 13
    Location
    Kansas City, United States
    Posts
    1,252
    One idea I read about South Korea trying that seemed like it made a lot of sense is laying electric cable in major roadways when they are due to be resurfaced.

    The idea is that electric vehicles can pull power directly from the grid via induction while driving on highways and major traffic routes. This eliminates the need to try to pack 3000lbs of batteries into a car, since a much shorter ranged vehicle can still easily bridge the gap between any powered roads.

  12. #42
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    08 Mar 11
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,358
    First, we move manufacturing off-shore, to reduce costs.
    Next, we move up the value-added scale at home, while standards of living get a boost from lower consumer prices.
    But, some companies won't invest (domestically) in increasing productivity, and instead call for trade barriers.
    And, some workers won't invest in their own skills and still expect to be over-paid for low value work.

    As living standards rise / consumer goods become more affordable, demands for better labor and environmental rights emerge. When the companies and workers noted above can't manage to turn 320 million consumers into self-harming protectionists, they turn to "conditions."

    "Those cheap workers stole our jobs!"
    "Those polluters stole our jobs!"

    "Um, wadda ya mean I gotta work a dirty, dangerous, disgusting job for minimum wage? I'm 'Murican!"

  13. #43
    Contributor DarthSiddius's Avatar
    Join Date
    23 Nov 11
    Location
    Burlington, ON
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I got a guy who tried the solar panel thing for his house. Lasted about a year before he switched back to hydro. The maintenance finally got to him. He has 10+ car batteries sitting out in the open. Imagine this a million times over in your neck of the world. Is the regular household going to properly take care of battery storage ... or wherever he has room?
    Agree but regular households can't be trusted to store gasoline properly either. Hence the need for gas stations. Battery replacement/exchange or storage stations perhaps? I agree, alternatives aren't up-to task yet. They lag behind in usability while giving only nominal gains in their "green" quotient. My contention is that we need to encourage and provide incentives for research in alternative renewable sources. Tax concessions / subsidies on electric vehicles helps create a market. None of this hampers the oil industry.
    Last edited by DarthSiddius; 15 Jan 16, at 18:36.

  14. #44
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Aug 08
    Location
    UK/Europe
    Posts
    4,120
    We are due to have a survey to explore the possibility of geothermal energy on my family home in Ukraine this year.

  15. #45
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    23,777
    Oil at $29.50 at this moment.

    I demand an investigation in to why oil is dropping so fast. We have to help those oil companies losing money right now. They must survive in order to preserve competition in the market place. We all know monopoly guarantees higher prices. Competition guarantees lower prices. No exceptions.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. What year is it?
    By Ironduke in forum World Affairs Board Pub
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01 Feb 08,, 21:53
  2. PW: 5-year-old boy shoots 6-year-old girl with pistol in Grozny
    By Lunatock in forum International Economy
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 28 May 06,, 05:23
  3. PU will pay Rs 50,000 for 5-year PhD
    By Ray in forum International Politics
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10 Apr 06,, 20:21
  4. Man of the Year?
    By Leader in forum Europe and Russia
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04 Jan 04,, 05:03

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •