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  • #76
    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
    It is actually not unconstitutional to bar any or all foreigners from entering the US.

    Show me how a law that bars all foreign muslims from entering the US is unconstitutional.
    What if an American citizen wanted to sponsor his wife, a muslim to the United States? He could make the claim that he, a US citizen. was being discriminated against on the basis of religion. Wouldn't that be considered unconstitutional?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
      It might help if people stopped regarding Islam as a religion and started seeing it for what it is, an international political movement that claims its mandate from a deity. Yes adherents are attracted to it because of their faith in deities but the Koran and various Hadith are simply texts taking faith and enforcing that faith in a political movement covering all aspects of society. Fascism, capitalism, socialism, communisism, Confucianism, Islam.
      Suddenly putting a political movement using violence to achieve its aims under the microscope, no matter the ethnicity or personal piety of its followers, doesn't seem such a problem does it.
      You would have to apply that to every religion then, Christianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

      Personally I think it serves to distinguish between radical Islamism, which is political ideology based off of Islam which seeks to export itself mostly through violence and comparable to movements like Facism or communism and Islam the religion itself. Even if we might be disturbed by some aspects of the religion itself, or the way it is practiced in some places; on issues like gay or women's rights, the way is deeply embedded in the political system of Muslim countries. As long as that stays within Islamic countries and does not seek to impose itself on the outside world it is not so much of a concern for the world.

      Radical Islamism might be embedded in Islamic societies to various degrees, like part of the ruling elite in a country like Saudi Arabia or Iran but almost totally absent in countries like Indonesia and even India with its large Muslim minority.
      Last edited by InExile; 10 Dec 15,, 03:53.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by InExile View Post
        You would have to apply that to every religion then, Christianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
        I already do. They were all developed in conjunction with burgeoning state control and are political tools attaching themselves like mental viruses to peoples genuine personal faith. My own culture went through centuries of bloody battles with millions dead to separate church from state. Because Christianity is now a relatively benign parasite within the west we tend to accord it and therefore other religions with more respect then they deserve. All major religions are political movements because they seek to dominate societal beliefs and laws, Islam is the currently violent virulent one.
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

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        • #79
          I suspect that if the United States really were to pass a law barring entry to any foreign Muslim, the result would be that we'd end up blocking the good guys while providing little or no hindrance to the bad guys.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
            I already do. They were all developed in conjunction with burgeoning state control and are political tools attaching themselves like mental viruses to peoples genuine personal faith. My own culture went through centuries of bloody battles with millions dead to separate church from state. Because Christianity is now a relatively benign parasite within the west we tend to accord it and therefore other religions with more respect then they deserve. All major religions are political movements because they seek to dominate societal beliefs and laws, Islam is the currently violent virulent one.
            Damn I miss the like button so much right now.
            For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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            • #81
              @Pari

              I find trump surprisingly similar to bal thackeray, a nationalist indian leader from western india. He was aggressive and brutally honest in his opinions which made him very politically incorrect to a small section of the general population. You would wonder how could such a person ever become a politician? Well, he actually did and won many elections. To the people, he was a politician who didn't sound like a politician. He was "vulgur" till the end of his days and the people loved him. He died three years ago but left behind a political legacy.

              So I will not be surprised in trump wins.

              One from the archives
              Last edited by anil; 10 Dec 15,, 17:16.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by InExile View Post
                What if an American citizen wanted to sponsor his wife, a muslim to the United States? He could make the claim that he, a US citizen. was being discriminated against on the basis of religion. Wouldn't that be considered unconstitutional?
                The wife is not an automatic US citizen. She's on a fast trac but her marriage doesn't make her one and, therefore, not privy to the privledges of US citizenship.
                Chimo

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                  There's a pretty big extremism problem with communities in some nations. AFAIK, the US Muslim population is extremely docile compared to the global Muslim community, and we really have no particular reason to fear them.

                  I may be biased as I have several Muslim friends.
                  The thing is US muslim population is still relatively small. Do you want to keep it that way or import more of them, and some of them extremists, to be more like Europe?

                  Individual muslims are nice people. The problem is when the individuals become a large horde. They don't assimilate well. They tend to keep amongst themselves. Ever notice all immigrants who assimilate well adopt American names? We hardly ever see 2nd generation Asians with Asian names. They almost always have western names. Muslims actually make an effort to NOT have western names. Chris Jackson became Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor became Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I'm not saying they are all extremists or they are un-American. But it's very interesting to have a religion that states it is incompatible with everything else. Why can't a devout muslim stay with a name of "John Smith" or "Alexander Duncan?"
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                    I already do. They were all developed in conjunction with burgeoning state control and are political tools attaching themselves like mental viruses to peoples genuine personal faith. My own culture went through centuries of bloody battles with millions dead to separate church from state. Because Christianity is now a relatively benign parasite within the west we tend to accord it and therefore other religions with more respect then they deserve. All major religions are political movements because they seek to dominate societal beliefs and laws, Islam is the currently violent virulent one.
                    Even considering the entirety of Islam to be a political movement, Islamism can still be considered a distinct political force, even if it might overlap with Islam in several places. The rise of Islamism too can be traced to several events in the 20th century, like the rise of the Muslim brotherhood movement, the export of Wahhabi-ism by the Saudi oil wealth, the overthrow of the Shah of Iran, the Jihad in Afghanistan against the USSR, the decision of countries like Pakistan to nurture Islamist groups as a geopolitical tool against their neighbors and more recently the collapse of longstanding authoritarian regimes in the middle east

                    It is entirely possible to imagine an alternate history where secular Arab Nationalism had remained the dominant ideology in the middle east, in which case Islam might have been today a somewhat more annoying version of Christianity in Muslim countries.
                    Last edited by InExile; 11 Dec 15,, 04:57.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      The wife is not an automatic US citizen. She's on a fast trac but her marriage doesn't make her one and, therefore, not privy to the privledges of US citizenship.
                      But we are talking about the husband here, who is a citizen. Can he not claim that he is being discriminated against in his ability to sponsor his wife because of her religion as compared to an American whose wife is non muslim?

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by InExile View Post
                        But we are talking about the husband here, who is a citizen. Can he not claim that he is being discriminated against in his ability to sponsor his wife because of her religion as compared to an American whose wife is non muslim?
                        Nope! Immigration fraud is a big time business in the US. A man or a woman may pay someone $1000s just to get married to stay in the US ... and more than a few get discovered and thrown out.
                        Chimo

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Nope! Immigration fraud is a big time business in the US. A man or a woman may pay someone $1000s just to get married to stay in the US ... and more than a few get discovered and thrown out.
                          No doubt, but this was just an example of how although non resident aliens are not covered by the bill of rights, a blanket ban based on religion might still be unconstitutional because of the affected parties who are Americans.

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                          • #88
                            Once they're on US soil, they are subject to US laws, including the immigration officer. Outside the US, they don't have to give you squat, even if you're the spouse of an American citizen. In fact, they don't even have to give you a reason, just a DENIED stamp. You have to jump through hoops to find out why.
                            Chimo

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Once they're on US soil, they are subject to US laws, including the immigration officer. Outside the US, they don't have to give you squat, even if you're the spouse of an American citizen. In fact, they don't even have to give you a reason, just a DENIED stamp. You have to jump through hoops to find out why.
                              Again true, but it doesn't have anything to do with the unconstitutionality of a religious based ban.

                              Sure, tomorrow Congress could stop the immigration of all left handed people, or stop immigration altogether and there would be no doubt in regards to the constitutionality. But religious discrimination (of US citizens, in the example the spouse of the Muslim) seems to go against the first amendment.

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                              • #90
                                But they're not US citizens. They're the spouse of US citizens. Two different things.
                                Chimo

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