Originally posted by gunnut
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostIt might help if people stopped regarding Islam as a religion and started seeing it for what it is, an international political movement that claims its mandate from a deity. Yes adherents are attracted to it because of their faith in deities but the Koran and various Hadith are simply texts taking faith and enforcing that faith in a political movement covering all aspects of society. Fascism, capitalism, socialism, communisism, Confucianism, Islam.
Suddenly putting a political movement using violence to achieve its aims under the microscope, no matter the ethnicity or personal piety of its followers, doesn't seem such a problem does it.
Personally I think it serves to distinguish between radical Islamism, which is political ideology based off of Islam which seeks to export itself mostly through violence and comparable to movements like Facism or communism and Islam the religion itself. Even if we might be disturbed by some aspects of the religion itself, or the way it is practiced in some places; on issues like gay or women's rights, the way is deeply embedded in the political system of Muslim countries. As long as that stays within Islamic countries and does not seek to impose itself on the outside world it is not so much of a concern for the world.
Radical Islamism might be embedded in Islamic societies to various degrees, like part of the ruling elite in a country like Saudi Arabia or Iran but almost totally absent in countries like Indonesia and even India with its large Muslim minority.Last edited by InExile; 10 Dec 15,, 03:53.
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Originally posted by InExile View PostYou would have to apply that to every religion then, Christianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostI already do. They were all developed in conjunction with burgeoning state control and are political tools attaching themselves like mental viruses to peoples genuine personal faith. My own culture went through centuries of bloody battles with millions dead to separate church from state. Because Christianity is now a relatively benign parasite within the west we tend to accord it and therefore other religions with more respect then they deserve. All major religions are political movements because they seek to dominate societal beliefs and laws, Islam is the currently violent virulent one.For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!
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@Pari
I find trump surprisingly similar to bal thackeray, a nationalist indian leader from western india. He was aggressive and brutally honest in his opinions which made him very politically incorrect to a small section of the general population. You would wonder how could such a person ever become a politician? Well, he actually did and won many elections. To the people, he was a politician who didn't sound like a politician. He was "vulgur" till the end of his days and the people loved him. He died three years ago but left behind a political legacy.
So I will not be surprised in trump wins.
One from the archives
Last edited by anil; 10 Dec 15,, 17:16.
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Originally posted by InExile View PostWhat if an American citizen wanted to sponsor his wife, a muslim to the United States? He could make the claim that he, a US citizen. was being discriminated against on the basis of religion. Wouldn't that be considered unconstitutional?Chimo
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Originally posted by GVChamp View PostThere's a pretty big extremism problem with communities in some nations. AFAIK, the US Muslim population is extremely docile compared to the global Muslim community, and we really have no particular reason to fear them.
I may be biased as I have several Muslim friends.
Individual muslims are nice people. The problem is when the individuals become a large horde. They don't assimilate well. They tend to keep amongst themselves. Ever notice all immigrants who assimilate well adopt American names? We hardly ever see 2nd generation Asians with Asian names. They almost always have western names. Muslims actually make an effort to NOT have western names. Chris Jackson became Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali. Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor became Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I'm not saying they are all extremists or they are un-American. But it's very interesting to have a religion that states it is incompatible with everything else. Why can't a devout muslim stay with a name of "John Smith" or "Alexander Duncan?""Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostI already do. They were all developed in conjunction with burgeoning state control and are political tools attaching themselves like mental viruses to peoples genuine personal faith. My own culture went through centuries of bloody battles with millions dead to separate church from state. Because Christianity is now a relatively benign parasite within the west we tend to accord it and therefore other religions with more respect then they deserve. All major religions are political movements because they seek to dominate societal beliefs and laws, Islam is the currently violent virulent one.
It is entirely possible to imagine an alternate history where secular Arab Nationalism had remained the dominant ideology in the middle east, in which case Islam might have been today a somewhat more annoying version of Christianity in Muslim countries.Last edited by InExile; 11 Dec 15,, 04:57.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostThe wife is not an automatic US citizen. She's on a fast trac but her marriage doesn't make her one and, therefore, not privy to the privledges of US citizenship.
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Originally posted by InExile View PostBut we are talking about the husband here, who is a citizen. Can he not claim that he is being discriminated against in his ability to sponsor his wife because of her religion as compared to an American whose wife is non muslim?Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostNope! Immigration fraud is a big time business in the US. A man or a woman may pay someone $1000s just to get married to stay in the US ... and more than a few get discovered and thrown out.
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Once they're on US soil, they are subject to US laws, including the immigration officer. Outside the US, they don't have to give you squat, even if you're the spouse of an American citizen. In fact, they don't even have to give you a reason, just a DENIED stamp. You have to jump through hoops to find out why.Chimo
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostOnce they're on US soil, they are subject to US laws, including the immigration officer. Outside the US, they don't have to give you squat, even if you're the spouse of an American citizen. In fact, they don't even have to give you a reason, just a DENIED stamp. You have to jump through hoops to find out why.
Sure, tomorrow Congress could stop the immigration of all left handed people, or stop immigration altogether and there would be no doubt in regards to the constitutionality. But religious discrimination (of US citizens, in the example the spouse of the Muslim) seems to go against the first amendment.
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