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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Hitler may not, but his generals had the right insights. At this point in the war they were still occasionally listened to. Sadly, He and OKW/OKH did not listen to Rommel or Kesselring.
    Hitler was not about to listen to non-yes men.

    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    I'm not sure I follow since the whole point of Sea Lion as planned and Vichy France and Denmark as applied was to force a former belligerent to adopt a government that was at least permissive of German ambitions.
    France and Denmark were occupied. The loss of North Africa would not result in a German Army marching down the streets of London.

    And if SEA LION occurred, Churchill would remain in victorious power.
    Chimo

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      Hitler was not about to listen to non-yes men.
      He did listen, just with decreasing frequency after his stand fast order outside Moscow saved the German Army.

      France and Denmark were occupied.
      Vichy France wasn't until 1943.

      The loss of North Africa would not result in a German Army marching down the streets of London.

      And if SEA LION occurred, Churchill would remain in victorious power.
      No but Germans marching through the streets of Alexandria while paratroopers sunned themselves on the shores of Malta would likely have precipated a political crisis in the UK. Without Malta and Alexandria the Med more than a fighters flight from Gibraltar now belongs to the Axis which means Syria and Palestine are naked and ripe for the picking and after them Iraq and its oil. The last line of defense is Cairo and the Suez, but if the IJN is in the Indian ocean thats a non-starter.

      Hitler was always looking for the big win that would gain him a Clauswitizian decisive victory and a way out of a total war Germany could not win. Even late 1944 with Wacht am Rhein he was looking for the 1 win that would win it all.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
        He did listen, just with decreasing frequency after his stand fast order outside Moscow saved the German Army.
        Within context, Rommel was not going to convince Hitler to give up BARBAROSSA.

        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        Vichy France wasn't until 1943.
        It was 1940 but the point was that Hitler was not going to reward Franco with French territory for efforts that was less than a quarter of what Vichy France was giving him.

        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        No but Germans marching through the streets of Alexandria while paratroopers sunned themselves on the shores of Malta would likely have precipated a political crisis in the UK.
        Which again is outside Hitler's thinking and frankly outside of any regular human being's thinking. No one plans a battle with an objective of making a politician lose an election.

        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        Without Malta and Alexandria the Med more than a fighters flight from Gibraltar now belongs to the Axis which means Syria and Palestine are naked and ripe for the picking and after them Iraq and its oil. The last line of defense is Cairo and the Suez, but if the IJN is in the Indian ocean thats a non-starter.
        Gibraltar is another scenario and one that is fraught with butterfly effects. Franco didn't side with Hitler simply because it was too easy for London to re-ignite the Spanish Civil War. Franco made outrageous demands, including French territory while only offering safe passage for German troops to Gibraltar. No Spanish troops to storm the British garrison.

        Originally posted by zraver View Post
        Hitler was always looking for the big win that would gain him a Clauswitizian decisive victory and a way out of a total war Germany could not win. Even late 1944 with Wacht am Rhein he was looking for the 1 win that would win it all.
        That is Hitler being Hitler.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • Thinking about what's on the table here, Reich is not Rome to raise local armies. Gibraltar, Suez, Tehran, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, North Africa, Malta, defenses on the East...This is a nightmare for the logistics, just to keep the troops supplied and rotated.
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • Doktor,

            Thinking about what's on the table here, Reich is not Rome to raise local armies.
            not to the level of Rome, certainly, but the Reich did recruit quite heavily from disaffected Russians (1-2 million!), and of course there were several hundred thousand Waffen-SS foreign volunteers.

            plus the slave labor.

            German logistics never matched that of the Russians let alone the Americans, but considering they were using top notch (well, relatively speaking and for the time) internal European rail networks, they did alright until the end.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Actually, considering how long Op CITADEL was delayed and with years of constructing a proper LOC, Syria and Egypt was not going to be any easier. Absent Franco taking Gibraltar, my bet goes to the Montgomery's Eighth Army.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                Doktor,



                not to the level of Rome, certainly, but the Reich did recruit quite heavily from disaffected Russians (1-2 million!), and of course there were several hundred thousand Waffen-SS foreign volunteers.

                plus the slave labor.

                German logistics never matched that of the Russians let alone the Americans, but considering they were using top notch (well, relatively speaking and for the time) internal European rail networks, they did alright until the end.
                Most of the places aren't in Europe.

                You should see our rail today, vastly revitalized after WW2 to think again.
                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Actually, considering how long Op CITADEL was delayed and with years of constructing a proper LOC, Syria and Egypt was not going to be any easier. Absent Franco taking Gibraltar, my bet goes to the Montgomery's Eighth Army.
                  Col,

                  Wasn't Monty a last minute replacement for accidentally killed MG, IIRC name was Alexander? What do we know for this guy? Say his plane didn't crash? (again IIRC, from my mobile)
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                  Comment


                  • Wiki's entry for 8th Army

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth...ted_Kingdom%29

                    British Generals were not all incompetents.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Far from it. Was just curious how much a personal change would affect the outcome.
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • Decisevely.But at the same time it can't be quantified.
                        Those who know don't speak
                        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                          Thinking about what's on the table here, Reich is not Rome to raise local armies. Gibraltar, Suez, Tehran, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, North Africa, Malta, defenses on the East...This is a nightmare for the logistics, just to keep the troops supplied and rotated.
                          Thats what the Bulgarians are for... Bulgaria joined the Axis but refused to declare war on Russia and so used her troops to police interior lines of the Axis conquests. In addition the Heer and SS each had security divisions used for anti-partisan and occupation duties.

                          OOE,

                          Which again is outside Hitler's thinking and frankly outside of any regular human being's thinking. No one plans a battle with an objective of making a politician lose an election.
                          North Vietnam's entire strategy against both France and the US was to last 1 day longer than the enemy was willing to fight. They always saw ultimate victory decided by a political crisis of confidence in whatever western nation they were fighting.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            North Vietnam's entire strategy against both France and the US was to last 1 day longer than the enemy was willing to fight. They always saw ultimate victory decided by a political crisis of confidence in whatever western nation they were fighting.
                            But their entire battle plans, DBP, Khe Sanh, and Tet were based on operational objectives, ie seizing of towns, control points, government positions, not to force a vote.

                            That strategy also backfired against the Chinese.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              But their entire battle plans, DBP, Khe Sanh, and Tet were based on operational objectives, ie seizing of towns, control points, government positions, not to force a vote.

                              That strategy also backfired against the Chinese.
                              Those battles were fought to force a political resolution. A strategy that only works when a government is responsive to public pressure. The UK is such a government.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                Those battles were fought to force a political resolution.
                                Their political resolution was a march straight into Saigon. In fact, Tet was fought in Saigon. That's a military conquest. There's no way in hell that Vo and cohorts could have predicted the anti-war movement.
                                Chimo

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