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Thread: WWII what-ifs

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    That's the point. The real history was that the Soviets wasted themselves on the attack. If the Germans moved in August, those fronts would have been forced into the defensive since they would not have time to organize an offense. Even if the Germans cut those fronts to shreds, they still would have wasted a month regrouping and rearming before moving onto Moscow. They would not have reached Moscow before they actually did in the OTL.
    Sir, I disagree. The Soviet general counter offensive of late summer was a pre-war plan and occurred even where the Soviets had been pushed on the defensive. The Germans cut them apart. Soviet command and control was disjointed, the wrong generals were in charge, training was junk, equipment was mostly junk, and the operational thinking and planning was junk. Zhukov and Vatutin managed some local successes, but in doing so left the forces they started with shattered and combat ineffective.

    Zhukov was back in command in Nov.
    Wont save them, if we look at real history, the Soviets simply didn't have an answer for blitzkrieg style tactics in 1941.

    Because they were not forced to until now.
    Moscow doesn't force them to anymore than Smolensk does. The terrain is not terribly favorable for it and you risk a huge force going into the bag. You trap most of the Moscow defenders in Moscow and the troops being raised won't be enough to break the encirclement.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Sir, I disagree. The Soviet general counter offensive of late summer was a pre-war plan and occurred even where the Soviets had been pushed on the defensive. The Germans cut them apart. Soviet command and control was disjointed, the wrong generals were in charge, training was junk, equipment was mostly junk, and the operational thinking and planning was junk.
    The fronts in question attacked in Sept/Oct. Your postulate is that the Germans attack in August. The Germans still have to destroy these fronts, which again requires a regroup and re-arm afterwards before they goto Moscow. At best, you're looking at a late Sept/early Oct attack on Moscow which again fits well within the original timeline. And you are not going to take Moscow in 30 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Zhukov and Vatutin managed some local successes, but in doing so left the forces they started with shattered and combat ineffective.
    They have more coming. The 1st Moscow Crack Army was ready by Nov. Individual divisions were ready before then

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Wont save them, if we look at real history, the Soviets simply didn't have an answer for blitzkrieg style tactics in 1941.
    The real history was that they were stopped before Moscow. Unless you can show me that somehow that Guderian could reach Moscow in August, we're back to the original timeline before he could make that assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Moscow doesn't force them to anymore than Smolensk does. The terrain is not terribly favorable for it and you risk a huge force going into the bag. You trap most of the Moscow defenders in Moscow and the troops being raised won't be enough to break the encirclement.
    And we're faced with the exact same situation the Germans faced. Russian mud stopped the attack in Nov and even if the Germans managed to encircle Moscow, they're now faced with an extended front and exposed flanks being cripple by the Russian winter with no winter clothing and oil that would not work without hours of heating, unable to stop 10 Russian armies from massing and concentrating their force at will at any spot on the flanks and extended front in Jan, 42.

    This was a disaster waiting to happen.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 28 Apr 16, at 14:08.
    Chimo

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    I do now recognize Sea lion as planned could not have succeeded, the British couldn't believe the Germans were so stupid.

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    I don't know if this has been asked already or not? But what if the assassination attempt on Hitler in 1944 succeeded? You know the one where a bomb was placed under Hitler's table during a meeting and ripped his pants off which was made into a movie (Valkyrie) with Tom Cruise. Do you think the atrocities of the Nazis in the concentration camps would have been covered up in a negotiated peaceful surrender? And how would have Europe look today if that was the case?

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    Discussed. Unconditional surrender.

    Don't be lazy, planty of fantastic thoughts in the thread
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Discussed. Unconditional surrender.

    Don't be lazy, planty of fantastic thoughts in the thread
    45 pages with some very long posts! :D

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    What if Italy and italian populace was just as dedicated to the cause as germany and just as obediant to their leader as germany? furthermore, what if Italy was as technologically advanced as germany, and as industrialized as germany.

    Finally, as addition to all that, what if a canal network from mediterranean to north sea was worked on for years and completed by 1939, connecting those two, allowing for passage of small destroyers and most submarines.

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    Dedication and obedience would not have changed the lack of Italian military insight, brilliance, or production.

    As for the canal, you've just given the RN a target.
    Chimo

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    They were already overstreched with BoB, guarding Denmark, hunting FF ships, Malta...
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    They were already overstreched with BoB, guarding Denmark, hunting FF ships, Malta...
    But you've just concentrated Axis assets. Sure, the RN was overstretched but they don't need to be where the Axis were absent.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    But you've just concentrated Axis assets. Sure, the RN was overstretched but they don't need to be where the Axis were absent.
    Let's say there is this Canal network and French ships are there, how this concentrates the Germans? This is just another area RN has to cover.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    What's the easiest way to block a canal? Sink a ship at its mouth. The Suez was shut down by this one simple act.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    What's the easiest way to block a canal? Sink a ship at its mouth. The Suez was shut down by this one simple act.
    Still have to dispatch ships
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    So would the Axis. In fact, they have more to defend.
    Chimo

  15. #675
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    Idea with italy is this: Italy is basically another germany for all intents and purposes, a perfect ally, with same characteristics as germans. They just happen to be officially a separate country and they speak italian.

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