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WWII what-ifs

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  • Allowing the Heer to adopt mobile tactics in the East changes things a lot. How quickly Mainstein acts to evacuate Tunisia will also matter, at least to the few thousand extra troops her can squeeze out at night.
    I'm just a reader of stuff with no idea of this stuff. The mobile tactics while effective, won't the mobile tactics require more fuel, trucks. Germans are still using horses?

    Evacuating Tunisia the air and water of the Med was an Axis Grave Yard. http://www.aviationartstore.com/stor...y_massacre.htm
    Last edited by Dazed; 26 Mar 16,, 05:02.

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    • Originally posted by Dazed View Post
      I'm just a reader of stuff with no idea of this stuff. The mobile tactics while effective, won't the mobile tactics require more fuel, trucks. Germans are still using horses?
      Not really, we are talking hose/boot movement, the idea being able to pull out of areas about to be pasted by artillery, wheel to meet flank attacks, pull bulges out of the line, back up to the ridge line rather than fight in a valley etc. Stand and DIE orders do not normally end in anything but dying...

      Evacuating Tunisia the air and water of the Med was an Axis Grave Yard. http://www.aviationartstore.com/stor...y_massacre.htm
      Operation Flax including the Palm Sunday Massacre were effective in shutting down daylight flight, but less so in shutting down night time operations. Plus an earlier start means more troops get out before allied fighters shut down the air routes.

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      • At the end of the day when it comes to the the type of civilization spanning 'total war' scenario encountered during WWII there are really only three variables (OK four if you count access to raw materials) that matter: total national industrial output, the relative capacities of each combatant for scientific/technical innovation and comparative population levels. All other factors (including generalship) being more or less equal then in order to defeat the Allied nations the Third Reich had to be in a position to at least match if not outperform it's opponents in all three of those metrics. It couldn't.

        So short of developing the A bomb before the US did Germany had no chance of winning. Whatever changes Germany might have made in overall military strategy or in the production ratios of specific weapon systems the end result would not have changed but instead merely been delayed. Perhaps Germany could have negotiated a more favorable end to hostilities (compared to unconditional surrender as actually offered) with Stalin or the West but I have never seen or read about a scenario where they could have emerged from the war on terms that Hitler or his immediate subordinates would recognize as 'victory'.
        Last edited by Monash; 28 Mar 16,, 13:04.
        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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        • monash,

          So short of developing the A bomb before the US did Germany had no chance of winning. Whatever changes Germany might have made in overall military strategy or in the production ratios of specific weapon systems the end result would not have changed but instead merely been delayed. Perhaps Germany could have negotiated a more favorable end to hostilities (compared to unconditional surrender as actually offered) with Stalin or the West but I have never seen or read about a scenario where they could have emerged from the war on terms that Hitler or his immediate subordinates would recognize as 'victory'.
          depends on the timeline, I'd think. if Hitler doesn't declare war on the US, I still think he could have walked away with a victory, or at the very least a stalemate on Soviet territory.

          I do agree by 1943 he/Germany was done for.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            depends on the timeline, I'd think. if Hitler doesn't declare war on the US, I still think he could have walked away with a victory, or at the very least a stalemate on Soviet territory.
            Hitler being Hitler, he could accept nothing but the subjugation of the Slavs while preparing for war against the Japs to establish the 1000 year Third Reich.
            Chimo

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            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
              The allies don't gain anymore of a pause than they already have, nothing is changing for them. The change is what Germany can do with the pause.
              The other side is the Allies would be ready much earlier. Men, supplies, and machine being fed into a meatgrinder are immediately available as too are those ships keeping them in combat.

              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Both sides routinely grounded entire squadrons to do exactly that. Though I think Germany would be more likely to follow the pattern of pulling out the better pilots to transition to the 262. This weakens the front line squadrons, but against the VVS its not a fatal flaw.
              The 262 ain't going to do nothing in the Eastern Front. In fact, the 109 for ground support is a far more valuable plane.
              Chimo

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              • Monash,

                I'd add one more to your list. The ability to project national power. Only defending is a home game which is a fools strategy. You have to be able project national power to influence the other combatants.
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

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                • Hitler being Hitler, he could accept nothing but the subjugation of the Slavs while preparing for war against the Japs to establish the 1000 year Third Reich.
                  Hitler COULD be tactically patient -when it suited him-. he would have never agreed to Molotov-Ribbentrop otherwise.

                  he considered the US to be a bunch of decadent mongrels controlled by Jews, but realized that taking on the US was going to be a multi-generational project-- after Germany controlled Eurasia.

                  in late 1941 he had the worst case of victory disease ever, and thought he was about to steamroll his way to victory everywhere.

                  but i think by 1943 he had changed his tune. he was SCARED of what was going to happen at Kursk, and already knew even then that the Russians wouldn't be offering him a separate peace.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                    Monash,

                    I'd add one more to your list. The ability to project national power. Only defending is a home game which is a fools strategy. You have to be able project national power to influence the other combatants.
                    Which is why I was surprised about Guderian questioning why is there a need to attack. Maybe Kursk was not the best target but one that was doable with an impact on the war.

                    Then it dawned on me. Guderian didn't know any better. A lot of what we take for granted today was borned out of WWII.
                    Chimo

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                    • could you explain that? do you mean politically, Hitler had to do something?
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                      • I mean militarily. If you're not trying to kill your enemy, then he will more than certainly be trying to kill you.
                        Chimo

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                        • ah, gotcha. but how is that a post-WWII thought?

                          in this case, why not attack something other than the most obvious target? or if not that, Guderian was probably hoping to do a counter-attack that would cut off the overextended Soviets instead of going to them.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            ah, gotcha. but how is that a post-WWII thought?
                            Deep Battle. Both Hitler and Guderian were dreading the big meat grinder that was about to come. The thought had not occurred to them to attack and disrupt the enemy's rear.

                            Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            in this case, why not attack something other than the most obvious target?
                            Because it would be obvious anyway where they're building to attack. You can't concentrate 100,000 men plus without the enemy knowing.

                            Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            or if not that, Guderian was probably hoping to do a counter-attack that would cut off the overextended Soviets instead of going to them.
                            I see Guderian's point. A Maginot Line. But his message is why do you want to attack "this year?" What do you mean "this year?" Why wouldn't you want to attack "this year?" You're going to sit on your ass while allowing the enemy to build up?

                            The "light bulb" moment is Guderian didn't know how to stop the Soviets from building up except the big meat grinder battles that he wasn't prepare to fight this year.
                            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 28 Mar 16,, 19:33.
                            Chimo

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                            • ^ one of the reasons why I love this thread. thanks, that was very insightful.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              • ^^^^^Like that last several posts, gentlemen.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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