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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #61
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Btw,have you noticed the dirty and idiotic way of comparing gun killings with overall killings?
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  2. #62
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Btw,have you noticed the dirty and idiotic way of comparing gun killings with overall killings?
    How do you mean?
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  3. #63
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    A useful reminder of why I wouldn't line my cat litter try with the Daily Heil: scaremongering, race baiting and selective presentation of data but somehow fails to provide the single most important piece of data relevant to the story. I guess 269 murders looks less scary than a figure of 130,000 assaults derived from survey data (a definition that includes threats not occasioning bodily harm).

    In case you were wondering, close to 10,000 people were murdered by firearms in the US that year.
    Ok.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33547806

    Is that good enough?

    You blame DM for being partial, but what you don't say is 2/3 are suicides of your gun deaths.

    Medical malpractice kills way more. Let's ban hospitals.
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  4. #64
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    It is commonly used in Europe,by the usual suspects.They don't compare killing rates or circumstances.For example, in the beloved motherland an average of 15 persons die yearly due to firearms.Idiots consider this to be good,compared to 10000 in US.But the other ~450 caused by anything else are graciously ignored.Considering some of the US killings to be legit,we have a higher murder rate per capita than US and we're virtually disarmed.But we're great,they're not shot.They're only stabbed ,hacked with axes etc...
    The same moronic style of argument is obviously used by morons all over Europe.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  5. #65
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    The Mass shooting in California yesterday was the 355th Mass shooting of this year. And there was a second Mass shooting is Georgia also, Dec 2d is the 336th day of the year. We are 20 days ahead of your worst case scenario.
    Come on, this is pedantic.
    1. There is no universal definition of "mass shooting" so your total isn't obviously true.
    2. The larger numbers of mass shootings tend to flex the definition to include incidents where multiple people were SHOT, but no one or only 1 or 2 people died: it does not change the actual calculation.
    3. Even adjusting the total to 1.5 shootings per day instead of 1 shooting per day does not substantially alter the final count. The orders of magnitude are 10:1 plus.

    If we are talking 10 mass shootings every day, each one killing 10 people, then we might have a legitimate public health concern. From mass shootings. And even then, that does not automatically justify banning assault weapons or limiting magazine size. It's still a trade-off to be considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    America has more mass shootings per month than we have had since 1996. The population is about 15 times larger. And that doesn't even get into the vast discrepancy between firearms murders (If the US had the same rate as us annual numbers would be 600-800). I'm not suggesting America can or should attempt to replicate our laws, just to point out that what is 'normal' in America is so far off the charts in other modern Western democracies that it is barely comprehensible.
    And what's incomprehensible to me are the draconian gun laws the rest of your nations pass in order to achieve marginal mortality gains.

    That's why you live in Australia, and I live in America.


    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    A significant number of those cases you mention are contingent on an individual's own life choices, and can be mitigated by them independently changing their lifestyles over time (i.e., diet, sleep, better driving etc.). How do you mitigate a near-regular occurrence of mass shootings? Hope it doesn't include you or someone you know next?


    That's kinda what we could use right now.


    Again, nobody's talking about disarming Americans as a whole. Just keeping guns out of the hands of crazies. And before you make a quip about government overreach, I would argue a system where mental health evals on prospective owners with "at-risk" histories are done independently and approved by a psychologist/psychiatrist on a case by case basis, with a "bill of good health" sent to the proper authorities as proof of sound condition. No breach of patient confidentiality, no breach of HIIPA, and more accountability in the hands of mental health professionals. And who's to say the number of lives to be saved would be capped at 200? What reason would there be not to expect suicide and homicide (non-mass shooting) rates to be affected due to enhanced awareness of mental health in background checks?

    Though I will add that I'm aware that current background checks on paper are supposed to account for mental health histories, but for whatever reason are often overlooked or omitted from the process. If what it takes is a better enforcement of the current laws, then I would be absolutely content with that. But as it stands, recent events have made it clear that the way we carry out checks is flawed.



    And yet they've still got a vastly lower murder per capita and gun violence rate than we do.



    Funny, because I actually really like how Vermont handles gun culture. I don't know what you think my stance is, but for the record I unequivocally support the second amendment. I completely support your right as an law abiding American citizen to own firearms for hunting, sport, and most importantly to protect yourself from the countless crazies in this world. Furthermore, I also believe that laws limiting magazine sizes, banning suppressors, full auto receivers etc. are asinine, because this does little to deter crazies and miscreants and more to limit the options of law abiding citizens.

    What I'm not for, is neglecting mental health when it comes to selling guns. What I'm not for, are people using private and online sales to irresponsibly sell guns to people without prior background checks. And what I'm especially not for, is the perpetuation of a dysfunctional gun culture where guns are seen at polar extremes as scary playthings or as objects of power and glamour. And what I most definitely can't stand, is the fantasy of Johnny Triggerfingers being the big damn hero and saving the day as some sort of CCP average joe superhero. Don't get me wrong, I'm for concealed carry, but I simply can't stand how glamorized gun culture has become.

    What I like about Vermont is that gun owners have a great, lasting tradition of treating their guns not as a plaything or a show of status or authority, but as a tool of great power and great responsibility. Many such owners descended from families that often lived and died by the gun, whether it was to hunt for game or defend against predators. This solemness, in my view, is sorely and disappointingly missing from our country's bipolar and convoluted view on guns.



    I trust our government just about as much as I trust Johnny Triggerfingers.
    I don't actually know your position specifically, any better than I know Gun Grape's position, or Gunnut's, or Bigfella's, or anyone else.

    I obviously have an interest in curbing gun violence, same as anyone else. I don't actually disagree with most of your proposals or most of the substance of what you are saying. Obviously mentally ill people should not be allowed to own guns....on the other hand, a national database of anyone who has a mental health condition at some point is going to include a huge part of the nation.

    My biggest problem isn't that we have some form of gun control, but it's that:
    Again, nobody's talking about disarming Americans as a whole.
    Yes! Yes, we are! This isn't some hypothetical situation, this actually happened in several local governments throughout the United States. When brought before the Supreme Court, 4 Justices said banning all guns is absolutely Constitutional.
    The problem is that the side that wants to disarm all Americans will continue to use any tragedy to satisfy their actual political ends.
    Even if we don't actually disarm Americans entirely, we're still talking about extreme limitations on the items Americans are allowed to own, which was the case under the Brady Bill not even 15 years ago.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  6. #66
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    It is commonly used in Europe,by the usual suspects.They don't compare killing rates or circumstances.For example, in the beloved motherland an average of 15 persons die yearly due to firearms.Idiots consider this to be good,compared to 10000 in US.But the other ~450 caused by anything else are graciously ignored.Considering some of the US killings to be legit,we have a higher murder rate per capita than US and we're virtually disarmed.But we're great,they're not shot.They're only stabbed ,hacked with axes etc...
    The same moronic style of argument is obviously used by morons all over Europe.
    Yes well, actual statistics aren't any use in attacking conservatives, which is what this is all about.
    When you look at numbers,
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ender_2013.xls
    the massive elephant in the room is the hugely disproportionate number of black on black shootings. America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a black violence problem, but it's much more fun to bait and harrass conservative gun owners.
    It becomes super ironic when you examine gun crime by political leanings.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...ll_people.html
    Last edited by Parihaka; 04 Dec 15, at 15:07.
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  7. #67
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    200 mn guns are out there in the US, good luck.

    Meanwhile, explosives are illegal. So are drugs and so was the alcohol.
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  8. #68
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    400 mn ,bro
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Meanwhile, explosives are illegal. So are drugs and so was the alcohol.
    Actually, low grade explosives are legal, ie fireworks, and the knowledge on how to make them is so wide spread that it is practically impossible to make it illegal.
    Chimo

  10. #70
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Yes well, actual statistics aren't any use in attacking conservatives, which is what this is all about.
    When you look at numbers,
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ender_2013.xls
    the massive elephant in the room is the hugely disproportionate number of black on black shootings. America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a black violence problem, but it's much more fun to bait and harrass conservative gun owners.
    It becomes super ironic when you examine gun crime by political leanings.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...ll_people.html
    But that's raycisss....


    You know it,I know it,the sane Americans know it.The rest will just talk&act like the idiots they are.

    The issue is for the sane folks to be strong enough to bloody their nose.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  11. #71
    Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Since when should this be a party issue? There's plenty of liberal gun owners with a vested interest in the second amendment. And plenty of people on both ends of the political spectrum have been affected by gun violence. Hell Vermont, the state with the loosest gun laws in the country, is a freaking blue state.
    "Draft beer, not people."

  12. #72
    Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    But that's raycisss....


    You know it,I know it,the sane Americans know it.The rest will just talk&act like the idiots they are.

    The issue is for the sane folks to be strong enough to bloody their nose.
    It's absolutely no secret that black on black violence, especially in the ghettos, is a problem and has been for decades.
    "Draft beer, not people."

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    It's absolutely no secret that black on black violence, especially in the ghettos, is a problem and has been for decades.

    And a large part of that is gang violence...which is related to turf...which is tied to the illegal drug trade.

    And we know how successful the War on Drugs has been.
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  14. #74
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Come on, this is pedantic.
    1. There is no universal definition of "mass shooting" so your total isn't obviously true.
    The one I always see is 4 or more people shot with at least 2 dead. But you brought up the term.
    2. The larger numbers of mass shootings tend to flex the definition to include incidents where multiple people were SHOT, but no one or only 1 or 2 people died: it does not change the actual calculation.
    SO you have to kill someone for there to be a gun violence problem?

    3. Even adjusting the total to 1.5 shootings per day instead of 1 shooting per day does not substantially alter the final count. The orders of magnitude are 10:1 plus.

    If we are talking 10 mass shootings every day, each one killing 10 people, then we might have a legitimate public health concern. From mass shootings.
    Death is not a public health concern. Everyone dies. People killed in a mass shooting(or car accident......) don't eat up health care money. Wounded people do.
    You tag and bag the dead at the scene. Its the survivors that cost health care money.
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  15. #75
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a black violence problem, but it's much more fun to bait and harrass conservative gun owners.
    Last time I checked Black Americans were still considered Americans.

    But its easy to pick an choose segments to define problems or the lack of a problem.

    " America doesn't have an education problem 57% of adult Asian Americans have at least a Bachelors degree. Its them pesky white people that skew the numbers with only 33% having the same."

    I look at your link and see that 5763 Americans were murdered in 2013. Thats a problem
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

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