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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #31
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I don't care about voting it away. Here is my question : if conservatives/ Republicans care so much about protecting the right of carry arms, why do they violate or tamp down the right to vote?
    When and where have the conservatives/republicans attempted to tamp down the right to vote? They merely want "sensible and responsible" voting laws.

    Is asking for a photo ID at a voting booth a violation of the right to vote?

    Is asking for a permit to vote a violation of the right to vote?

    Is asking for two forms of proof of residency to vote a violation of the right to vote?

    Is asking for a written voting application form at the time voting a violation of the right to vote?

    If you say yes, then my right to firearms has been violated repeatedly over the last 20 years.

    It seems like all constitutional rights are equal. Some are just more equal than others.
    Last edited by gunnut; 02 Dec 15, at 23:23.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  2. #32
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    Right now, to my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong) only US citizens can vote in local and federal election.

    Legal residents can vote in local elections but not federal elections.

    Illegals can't vote in any elections (if you don't count the wacky law passed by Jerry Brown here in Commiefornia and subjected to numerous lawsuits)

    Give me examples of where Republicans contested voting by legal citizens in federal elections.

  3. #33
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Gunnut,

    At almost every concert I have been to in the US we have police...same in Germany. But if the threat level in France called for that level of security...then there should have been cops or private security. Not sure of their laws.

    I am not saying you crack down on mental patients...I am saying the fact that you have a disease which could cause you to act in violent and irrational manner should be a reason for you to not have a weapon until such time as you are evaluated to being cured.
    But the problem is if I seek treatment, I will be labeled a "mental patient" for life and never be able to obtain a gun legally. This must be a case by case basis determined by the court system through due process. We can't just say so and so has a problem and he will be denied his constitutional right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    "Second Amendment is not about hunting. It never was."

    Yup, and our world has evolved since then. We do not have an active threat of Canadians, Frenchman and Spaniards on our northern, western and southern borders waiting to attack.
    I'm all for re-interpreting the Constitution based on the current situation of the republic. We don't have slaves any more. Let's re-examine the 14th Amendment, especially the birthright citizenship part because it is being abused right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Yes, the 2nd Amendment says you have the right own a weapon. But the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
    Never said it is. Article Five clearly offers a way to alter the Constitution. We have a process in place. Let's go through the proper process like any law abiding citizen would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    And we have changed the Constitution or interpreted before. There is no reason why there cannot be a new interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
    Change the definition to create a favorable outcome. Very nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    As for how to fix the problems...and there are problems...http://www.cnn.com/...they cannot be fixed when the opposite ends of the debate are allowed to control it.

    There is too much outside money...ON BOTH SIDES...polluting the issue.

    Elected representatives need to act like adults and sit down and come up with a rational way forward that both sides can live with. We cannot keep living that it is all or nothing for "my side" on an issue or we will go the way of past societies which stopped governing themselves.
    How do we keep money out of politics? Restrict government power. Money is in it to buy influence. No one ever bribes me because I can't do anything for them. People will bribe any and all sitting senator/representative because they can influence an outcome of a political process to be favorable.

    Perhaps "bribe" is too harsh a word. Let's just say we "contribute to the re-election fund" of the said politician.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  4. #34
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    When and where have the conservatives/republicans attempted to tamp down the right to vote? They merely want "sensible and responsible" voting laws.

    Is asking for a photo ID at a voting booth a violation of the right to vote?

    Is asking for a permit to vote a violation of the right to vote?

    Is asking for two forms of proof of residency to vote a violation of the right to vote?

    Is asking for a written voting application form at the time voting a violation of the right to vote?

    If you say yes, then my right to firearms has been violated repeatedly over the last 20 years.

    It seems like all constitutional rights are equal. Some are just more equal than others.
    Lovely, now we are talking.

    The state has every right to ensure that those who go out to vote has the right to do so. This needs to be done in such a way as the id check is not overly burdensome for any particular segment.

    Now my turn

    Are criminal background checks a violation of the right to bear arms ?
    Are mental background checks a violation of the right to bear arms?
    Is creating a law around permits to own guns a violation of the right to bear arms?
    Is a gun registry a violation of the right to bear arms?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  5. #35
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Lovely, now we are talking.

    The state has every right to ensure that those who go out to vote has the right to do so. This needs to be done in such a way as the id check is not overly burdensome for any particular segment.

    Now my turn

    Are criminal background checks a violation of the right to bear arms?
    Are mental background checks a violation of the right to bear arms?
    Is creating a law around permits to own guns a violation of the right to bear arms?
    Is a gun registry a violation of the right to bear arms?
    I'm not against any of those measures as long as you approve the following:

    Are you for or against a background check at the voting booth? Of course this background check has a nominal cost, say....$19, to administer the system.
    Should we strip mental patients the right to vote without due process?
    Should there be a voting permit for people to vote? Of course one has to take a 30 question test to and pay a $25 fee (for the administration) to obtain this permit. These questions aren't hard, just basic civic knowledge of the United States political system.
    There is a voter's registry already so I'm ok with that.

    In addition, at the voting booth, one must fill out a form stating one's full name, address, county and state spelled out in full, no abbreviations, and state that one is not a criminal or any other person ineligible to vote, sign and date, before being handed a ballot. One must also present a photo ID and 2 documents to prove residency. A United States passport does not count as proof of residency. A cell phone bill is not a proof of residency. It must be a car registration or cable/utility bill.

    Now get this, California just passed a law that automatically registers anyone who applies/renews a driver's license to vote. California also issues driver's license to illegal immigrants. Thoughts?
    Last edited by gunnut; 03 Dec 15, at 04:28.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  6. #36
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    YellowFever,

    “Give me examples of where Republicans contested voting by legal citizens in federal elections.”

    Florida, 2000, for starters. The purge of the voter rolls is widely known. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount

  7. #37
    Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't voter fraud in the US essentially a statistical non-issue?
    "Draft beer, not people."

  8. #38
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    Gunnut,

    So everything I ask or posit are too hard, inconvenient or controversial so we won't talk about them?

    Not saying we have to amend any amendment...but we cannot say it cannot be on the table.

    As for the 14th Amendment...you're right about the birthright abuse....it has given us Donald Trump!
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't voter fraud in the US essentially a statistical non-issue?
    Missing the LIKE button again!!!
    "The genius of you Americans is that you make no clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them we are missing." - Gamal Abdel Nasser

  10. #40
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    YellowFever,

    “Give me examples of where Republicans contested voting by legal citizens in federal elections.”

    Florida, 2000, for starters. The purge of the voter rolls is widely known. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount
    Chads anyone?

    Dimples?

    You expected Republicans to let a widely Democratic District to count the votes over and over with differing standards as to what counts as a vote?

    And what does this has to do with intimidating voters, which was the original charge by antimony?

    Besides the purging was attempted by both sides in the courts.

    Republic wanted to purge the "felon" vote and the Dems wanted to purge the military vote.

    Oh and by the way, the Panhandle ( traditionally voting Republican) was told the the voting closed an hour before it actually did.
    Last edited by YellowFever; 03 Dec 15, at 16:12.

  11. #41
    Patron Zad Fnark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't voter fraud in the US essentially a statistical non-issue?
    Not quite...

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...gh-voter-fraud

  12. #42
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zad Fnark View Post
    What, you mean to tell me Norm Coleman conceded the election...and then didn't whine and rush to the courts afterwards?????

    Shocking.....

  13. #43
    Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Zad,

    Were these convicted felons voting while in prison or did they serve their time? Also are we making the assumption that all of these votes were for Al Franken?

    Also this:

    No one objects in principle to the need to have drivers’ licenses or passports renewed, even if they have to stand in line someplace to get it done. Annoying? Yes. Time consuming? Absolutely. But the requirement for renewal is in no way an impediment, constitutionally or otherwise, to getting it done. It seems perfectly reasonable, therefore, to ask people to do the same with their voter registration.
    At least here in New York, getting even a Driver's permit costs upwards of $80, which is hell of a lot of money for some poorer folks who don't already have them (renewals are similarly costly). Never mind the hundreds of dollars taking Driver's ed courses. Also, Passports are even more expensive to acquire. Now if local and state governments are willing to give out free voting IDs that match the names on the registered listings then that's all well and good, but a license and/or passport requirement would seem to be an unnecessary barrier of entry for poorer voters.
    "Draft beer, not people."

  14. #44
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't voter fraud in the US essentially a statistical non-issue?
    So is mass shooting deaths compared to other homicides, but yet we are talking about it.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  15. #45
    Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    So is mass shooting deaths compared to other homicides, but yet we are talking about it.
    Certainly not insignificant if we lead the developed world in mass shooting incidents. With the amount of focus on deaths by mass shootings we seem to be awfully okay with the number of incidents we experience compared to other countries.

    I don't get it, what's wrong with taking steps like expanding background checks? No one but the extremes on both sides of the political spectrum is talking about the possibility of banning guns wholesale.
    "Draft beer, not people."

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