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  • Both knives and hammers are tools that are not designed for killing. Guns are. (edit) One of the reasons that the law say that the legal age of possession/ability to buy a gun is either 18/21

    I would expect that if a young child was able to get into the knife drawer and harm someone, most likely them self, that the parent would be held responsible. just like when a young child gets out of the house due to a parent neglecting to latch the door, watch the child, they are held responsible.

    On a side note. US military personnel are not allowed to have knives with a blade more than 3 1/2 inches unless involved in duties that require it. (field duty). They may not be kept in the BEQ and must be stored in the unit armory.
    Last edited by Gun Grape; 22 Mar 16,, 02:51.

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    • Here are some nice tools.

      http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/...r-hammers.aspx

      https://www.doitbest.com/products/22...power-hammer-1
      Last edited by surfgun; 22 Mar 16,, 13:34.

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      • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
        On a side note. US military personnel are not allowed to have knives with a blade more than 3 1/2 inches unless involved in duties that require it. (field duty). They may not be kept in the BEQ and must be stored in the unit armory.

        I think that that is branch specific.
        Ironically, in the Air Force - which has the least amount of "professional trigger pullers" there seems to be a more liberal policy on weapons.
        I know of no Air Force wide restriction on knives. Closest I've seen in certain schools prohibit knives in class.
        In my state of Massachusetts, the Adjutant General, in charge of all National Guardsmen, both Army and Air (an Air Force 2 star), wanted to allow personal carry of firearms IAW state law after Chatanooga. The Air National Guard commander was on board (this is a man I corrected in 2003 for wearing a horizontal shoulder holster backwards - so it isn't like he is a standard bearer for the NRA) and the only pushback came from the Army side.
        Air Force standard for carrying an M9 is: round in the chamber, hammer down, weapon OFF safe. Army seems to be (at least under direction of the Garrison Commander at Bagram, may be different elsewhere but I do remember being called out by Army in 2003 for having my safety off) chamber empty, hammer down, safety on - which to me is a directive from the department of redundancy department.
        Maybe the brass are looking at it from a total numbers game - more Army / Marine personnel with guns means more likely an accident, while the few Air Force would have fewer total accidents, even if the percentage is higher.




        Or maybe us Air Force folk are just plain smarter. After all, what better way to go to combat than to say, "Good luck, sir" and then grab a beer?
        "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tuna View Post
          Air Force standard for carrying an M9 is: round in the chamber, hammer down, weapon OFF safe.
          I'm actually surprised the Air Force continues to use the M9. Judging by your stated carry policy, I think they'd be happier with a something like a Glock, or a modern design with a decocker. They could even spring for a smaller and lighter option like a compact!

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          • Originally posted by tuna View Post
            I think that that is branch specific.
            Ironically, in the Air Force - which has the least amount of "professional trigger pullers" there seems to be a more liberal policy on weapons.
            I know of no Air Force wide restriction on knives. Closest I've seen in certain schools prohibit knives in class.
            In my state of Massachusetts, the Adjutant General, in charge of all National Guardsmen, both Army and Air (an Air Force 2 star), wanted to allow personal carry of firearms IAW state law after Chatanooga. The Air National Guard commander was on board (this is a man I corrected in 2003 for wearing a horizontal shoulder holster backwards - so it isn't like he is a standard bearer for the NRA) and the only pushback came from the Army side.
            Air Force standard for carrying an M9 is: round in the chamber, hammer down, weapon OFF safe. Army seems to be (at least under direction of the Garrison Commander at Bagram, may be different elsewhere but I do remember being called out by Army in 2003 for having my safety off) chamber empty, hammer down, safety on - which to me is a directive from the department of redundancy department.
            Maybe the brass are looking at it from a total numbers game - more Army / Marine personnel with guns means more likely an accident, while the few Air Force would have fewer total accidents, even if the percentage is higher.




            Or maybe us Air Force folk are just plain smarter. After all, what better way to go to combat than to say, "Good luck, sir" and then grab a beer?
            The brass is probably thinking of the 18 year old grunt and popping another Tums.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tuna View Post
              I think that that is branch specific.
              Ironically, in the Air Force - which has the least amount of "professional trigger pullers" there seems to be a more liberal policy on weapons.
              I know of no Air Force wide restriction on knives. Closest I've seen in certain schools prohibit knives in class.
              It is a DoD policy. No knives over 31/2in, no crossbows, no weapons, no BB guns may be stored in the BEQs


              Air Force standard for carrying an M9 is: round in the chamber, hammer down, weapon OFF safe. Army seems to be (at least under direction of the Garrison Commander at Bagram, may be different elsewhere but I do remember being called out by Army in 2003 for having my safety off) chamber empty, hammer down, safety on - which to me is a directive from the department of redundancy department.
              Its stupid. One of the reasons that the military got away from the M1911. M9 with round in chamber, on fire with the hammer forward puts the firing pin against the primer. a unsafe condition. All it takes is to bump the hammer for the round to discharge. How hard is it to thumb the roller block safety to fire when needed?
              Last edited by Gun Grape; 23 Mar 16,, 02:41.

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              • Do you have the DODI that states that? I've done a quick search and only find base instructions, generally Army posts, that list this.

                As for the M9 - there is a firing pin block which prevents the gun from firing unless the trigger is all the way back. It is designed to be carried and first shot like a DA revolver - perfectly safe.
                "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                  It is a DoD policy. No knives over 31/2in, no crossbows, no weapons, no BB guns may be stored in the BEQs

                  Answer- The 1911 has an inertia firing pin. It does not "rest on the primer." It is too short. Only with a worn firing pin spring will the drop on the muzzle will it cause the firing pin to contact a sensitive primer causing the firearm to discharge. Of course a firing pin safety also negates this possibility, many Colts have them. A lower mass firing pin also fixes this maintenance shortcoming, or if one just replaced through proper maintenance the damn firing pin spring every few years!
                  An M9 has a two price firing pin, with one pin contained within the safety, when it is rotated out of alignment, so no matter what one does with the hammer it will not go bang."


                  Its stupid. One of the reasons that the military got away from the M1911. M9 with round in chamber, on fire with the hammer forward puts the firing pin against the primer. a unsafe condition. All it takes is to bump the hammer for the round to discharge. How hard is it to thumb the roller block safety to fire when needed?
                  See above
                  Last edited by surfgun; 23 Mar 16,, 14:16.

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                  • Originally posted by tuna View Post
                    Do you have the DODI that states that? I've done a quick search and only find base instructions, generally Army posts, that list this.
                    I'll see if I can find it


                    As for the M9 - there is a firing pin block which prevents the gun from firing unless the trigger is all the way back. It is designed to be carried and first shot like a DA revolver - perfectly safe.
                    Is the firing pin block a mechanical device subject to break or wear? Yes it is. Then it is not "Perfectly safe"

                    Thats why the Army and Marine Corps teaches, and practices, weapon on safe until you are ready to kill someone

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                      I'll see if I can find it




                      Is the firing pin block a mechanical device subject to break or wear? Yes it is. Then it is not "Perfectly safe"

                      Thats why the Army and Marine Corps teaches, and practices, weapon on safe until you are ready to kill someone
                      The firing pin on an M9 would be much more likely to wear than the firing pin block. The block on an M9 is built like a tank. And also the firing pin in an M9 is a inertia type pin. It is too short to reach a primer when a hammer is struck from the rear while the hammer is completely down. So it is safe as a modern hammer block or transfer bar revolver, while chamber loaded and hammer down.
                      Last edited by surfgun; 23 Mar 16,, 15:58.

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                      • I understand that. I also know that "It can't happen" "Its designed to keep that from happening" fails. I believe in Murphy. And I have seen the results when people don't respect him. As for the won't fire unless the trigger is pulled. Triggers are snag magnets.

                        Now If you don't like that reason for USMC/USN/US Army weapon condition codes, the other argument is that these codes can be used for any weapon. And you will always have a safe weapon. If that AF security/JTAC person goes TAD to a Army/Navy?USMC unit he doesn't have to unlearn and learn a new safety procedure for his M45 or his HK23 or one of the other pistols used by US forces. Or his M9 for that matter.

                        Also the safety procedures/weapon codes apply to all weapons across the board. A condition 1 weapon is the same, be it a M-16/M-4 or a M9.

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                        • OK, that's a valid answer that I disagree with but find no fault in. It makes sense at a strategic, big picture, level. I find a pistol to be a defensive arm, so it should always be ready to shoot someone.
                          As for the air force having glocks or the like, most would be well served with a makarov or small .380. Reason for smaller is that it is more likely carried than taken off because it's uncomfortable, which I've seen quite a bit.
                          "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tuna View Post
                            OK, that's a valid answer that I disagree with but find no fault in. It makes sense at a strategic, big picture, level. I find a pistol to be a defensive arm, so it should always be ready to shoot someone.
                            .
                            Weapon on safe, round in the chamber is "ready to shoot someone". That's how we carry all our weapons. Even in combat. When the rifle/pistol goes up, pointed at the target, then the weapon comes off safe.

                            Shoot, assess the target. Weapon on safe again, then back to the carry.

                            If more civilian law enforcement agencies used those techniques, you wouldn't have cops getting shot in the back when doing a dynamic entry. Or standing over a perp and the gun "accidentally" goes off.

                            You can't control the adrenalin rush. So you control what it effects.

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                            • Well GG, there is no safety on a Glock and odds are the US military is heading that way. If they order empty chamber carry, they may as well get something along the lines of Tokarev. The US military carried D/A revolvers for decades loaded. The M9 is at least as safe as the post 1945 revolvers and safer than the pre WW2 revolvers as those are pre transfer revolvers plus an M9 has a redundant safety firing pin safety that it's only function is to protect against a busted sear interface that would allow a hammer to follow through.
                              I understand Uncle does not trust the common Joe with a ready to fire weapon. This has nothing to do with facts of actual mechanical hardware and I accept that. It however does not change multiple mechanical facts.

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                              • If that's how you train, then that works for you. I've never trained like that, so it doesn't seem right to me. I'll take my chances on the accidental discharge from a blow to the hammer (as opposed to a negligent discharge from booger hook on bang switch) and use my M9s safety as a hammer dropper only.
                                "Bother", said Poo, chambering another round.

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