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Thread: India reacts strongly to reports of US-Pak nuke pact, says 'check Islamabad's prolife

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Sir, do you mind explaining it briefly.
    1973 was SMIING BUDDHA. The INS CHKRA is a nuclear weapons delivery vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    If China can fight India down to the last Pakistani, why can't India fight China down to the last Vietnamese?
    Because you're not Vietnam's sugardaddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    Didn't stop the British and French in Suez.
    Yes, it did.
    Chimo

  2. #62
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    1973 was SMIING BUDDHA. The INS CHKRA is a nuclear weapons delivery vehicle.
    Sir, do you mean that after Smiling Buddha India ceased to be a target of US nukes, and more importantly after Russian leased the Chakra to Indian Navy in 2012? Why? Smiling Buddha was just a test, not that India had 10s of nukes in its arsenal in 1974, nor does Chakra carry nukes.

  3. #63
    Senior Contributor anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    That is Colonel OOE's assertion, and I'll hold off on saying anything about it until he backs it up with evidence from people who were actually part of the National Command Authority in 1971.
    I wasn't referring to the US taking herself and everyone out in a blaze of glory, a MAD variant I suppose. Although col OoE has gone to great lengths to explain to us that the western civilizations(US through its allies) indeed prescribed to this "culture" over and above theory. I always stated that it was a concept so foreign to me and I lacked the capacity to challenge OoE over that.

    What I was however referring to this
    Interviewer: WHY DID INDIA SIGN A FRIENDSHIP TREATY WITH THE SOVIET UNION? WHAT DID SHE HAVE TO GAIN FROM IT?

    Subramanvam: Well it was meant to be a countervailing inference against the United States going too far in its support to Pakistan.(he's referring to the pogrom) And it was proved in 1971 December, if you read Dr. Kissinger's memoirs, he himself says the US administration asked China to move against India and the Chinese asked the question, "What happens if the Soviet Union moved against China?" Even though in, the United States did give some guarantees to China about that contingency China did not move. And therefore it was quite obvious that the Indian action of entering into the friendship treaty with the Soviet did succeed in restraining China from acting in spite of all the goading from the United States.
    openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/wpna-396e86-interview-with-kandury-subramanvam-1987

    In conjunction, he's saying that the pogrom could have been avoided altogether had india allied and invaded sooner. India could only figure out the american mind once it found itself in the situation.

    I also find the existence of this interview very bizarre.

    added later: I was responding to your doubt whether the US will help pakistan to balance india with nuclear weapons. When you made that comment, I immediately remembered k. subramaniyams quote and his govt situation vis a vis india, pakistan and the US in 1971.
    Last edited by anil; 11 Oct 15, at 16:56.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Sir, do you mean that after Smiling Buddha India ceased to be a target of US nukes,
    Quite the opposite. Any pretense that India was not a nuclear target was gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    and more importantly after Russian leased the Chakra to Indian Navy in 2012? Why? Smiling Buddha was just a test, not that India had 10s of nukes in its arsenal in 1974, nor does Chakra carry nukes.
    We didn't know that and we were not going to take the chance. INS CHAKRA was a nuclear target.
    Chimo

  5. #65
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Quite the opposite. Any pretense that India was not a nuclear target was gone.
    Understandable in 1974.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    We didn't know that and we were not going to take the chance. INS CHAKRA was a nuclear target.
    But in 2012? If you're suggesting US is governed by mad men, they really need to get their priorities right.
    Last edited by Oracle; 11 Oct 15, at 15:50.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    But in 2012? If you're suggesting US is governed by mad men, they really need to get their priorities right.
    Indian nukes are not under American command nor is India an ally of the US plus, they're using Russian designed nuclear delivery vehicles.

    American nuclear targeteers would not be doing their jobs if they don't identify and prioritize Indian nuclear targets to destroy Indian nuclear capabilities.
    Chimo

  7. #67
    Senior Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post

    But in 2012? If you're suggesting US is governed by mad men, they really need to get their priorities right.
    Simply an application of US nuclear targeting policy. By default, India is targeted simply because it is regarded as a non-aligned nation with nukes.

    And yes even decades after the Cold war, the US continues to be governed by MAD men
    "Draft beer, not people."

  8. #68
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    I do not see what the hullabaloo is. The Colonel is a military man whose job is to identify friends and foe (whoever is not a friend) and plan accordingly. I would expect Indian officers to do the same.

    The power to actually dictate action, I would assume, will lie with the poltis, not with the military/ stratetgic officers.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  9. #69
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Indian nukes are not under American command nor is India an ally of the US plus, they're using Russian designed nuclear delivery vehicles.

    American nuclear targeteers would not be doing their jobs if they don't identify and prioritize Indian nuclear targets to destroy Indian nuclear capabilities.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    Simply an application of US nuclear targeting policy. By default, India is targeted simply because it is regarded as a non-aligned nation with nukes.

    And yes even decades after the Cold war, the US continues to be governed by MAD men
    Not non-aligned anymore. I was thinking that the cold war mentality still persists in US circles.

    Okay, back to the topic. What do you guys think, Pak will get the deal?
    Last edited by Oracle; 12 Oct 15, at 06:44.

  10. #70
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    Actually, I found this strange. Indians applaud when they learn that we have plans to take out the Pakistani (our "allies") nuclear arsenal and grasp when they learn we have the same for India (our "rivals").

    There is absolutely no doubt in anyone's minds, however, not even in Dehli that India is a Russian ally.

    So, why is anyone shocked when we treat India as a Russian ally?
    Chimo

  11. #71
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    They don't see themselves as such. They see Russia as inventory supplier. They would buy US if Pak was not held so dear and if buying American wouldn't come with constraints.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  12. #72
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Actually, I found this strange. Indians applaud when they learn that we have plans to take out the Pakistani (our "allies") nuclear arsenal and grasp when they learn we have the same for India (our "rivals").
    Not questionaing the principle, questioning the utter stupidity of the ally/ rival designation

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    There is absolutely no doubt in anyone's minds, however, not even in Dehli that India is a Russian ally.

    So, why is anyone shocked when we treat India as a Russian ally?
    I am not saying that India is an American ally, but seeing India as a Russian ally s outdated thinking. New Delhi is not going to march anywhere on Moscow's orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    They don't see themselves as such. They see Russia as inventory supplier. They would buy US if Pak was not held so dear and if buying American wouldn't come with constraints.
    Exactly, too many strings
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  13. #73
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    They don't see themselves as such. They see Russia as inventory supplier. They would buy US if Pak was not held so dear and if buying American wouldn't come with constraints.
    I'm wondering just how restrictive these constraints are since I see many nations purchasing our hardware and not many of them seem to complain too much about these "constraints".

    And some of the equipment we sell them is even more advanced than some of the equipment our guys use.

    And just what are these constraints that I'be been hearing so much about from our Indian posters?
    Can anybody tell me the specifics?
    Last edited by YellowFever; 12 Oct 15, at 15:44.

  14. #74
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Sir, before I quote you and key in my reply, I want you to know that I'm a civilian born at the end of the Cold War, and as such see things differently than you. You're a veteran who have seen things closely, and I admire your insight of that period. But this is now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Actually, I found this strange. Indians applaud when they learn that we have plans to take out the Pakistani (our "allies") nuclear arsenal and grasp when they learn we have the same for India (our "rivals").
    First of all, this ally and rival thing is from the Cold War era. It doesn't apply now. US doing a Government to Government military sales of P-8I with a rival? We're the only country using that, after the USN.

    Now, Pakistan is all about military, mullah and madrasas. That they are a terrorist producing rouge state is known to all, even retired US officials admit that. They are known for their duplicity. Osama was found there, and Mullah Omar’s death was hidden for 2 years so that the ISI can meet its objectives in Afghanistan. We are a secular democracy, and we share those values with the US, the US President himself says so. We don’t have a first use policy regarding nukes, Pakistan has. There is a difference between India and Pakistan, at all levels, and we intend to maintain it, while Pakistan backed terrorists try and create mayhem, every week in India. You want to take away our nukes, please start with China and then go to Pakistan; we’d voluntarily give up ours. As in as I don’t see a nuke war happening, while millions go down the drain maintaining those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    There is absolutely no doubt in anyone's minds, however, not even in Dehli that India is a Russian ally.
    So, why is anyone shocked when we treat India as a Russian ally?
    That is true from the Cold War period. For the last 6-7 years, slightly more perhaps, I’ve seen and read many articles in Indian print media quoting senior defense ministry officials expressing their unhappiness about the delivery schedule, maintenance and spares of Russian equipments. While our forces are happy about US arms purchases, and it’s growing, in billions. We are not a Russian ally, and btw, Pakistan sees China as their ally. US is Pakistan’s ATM. US pays billions to Pakistan to fight the monsters Pakistan themselves created. There needs to be policy correction in Washington. There’s no way Afghanistan would be stable, while US pumps billions into Pakistan, and not bombs them.

    The last month, the Indian PM was in US, the CEOs of a select Fortune 100 companies asked the Indian PM to remove red tapism, bureaucratic hurdles and ease taxation policies. What we bring to the table? We bring a huge educated middle class that is growing every year with a lot of disposable income. We bring a large market for US goods and services. We bring in skilled and cheap manpower ready to be absorbed. We give a competitive edge to US MNCs who invest and operate out of India. We all know business houses fund elections and pay billions in taxes every year, so the co-operation between India and US would only increase. In the next 10-15 years, it’d go even deeper. A major terrorist strike then, which causes the industry to close down for 2-3 days would mean losing millions in revenues. Then, if Washington doesn’t change its policies, not India, but US business houses would force them to. Sir, I’m an optimist and this is my POV.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Not questionaing the principle, questioning the utter stupidity of the ally/ rival designation
    China.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I am not saying that India is an American ally, but seeing India as a Russian ally s outdated thinking. New Delhi is not going to march anywhere on Moscow's orders.
    They're helping you build nuclear weapons delivery vehicles. And you're guarding their belly.
    Chimo

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