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Thread: Canadian military explored plan to fully integrate forces with U.S.

  1. #1
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Canadian military explored plan to fully integrate forces with U.S.

    What do the servicemen/women here think of this? There is precedent in the ANZAC partnership. Think it could've worked for US and Canada?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...a-us-1.3248594

    CBC News has learned that a Canadian military effort to formally create integrated forces with the United States for expeditionary operations included an even more ambitious option — a plan to fully integrate military forces, explored during a meeting with the top generals from the two countries.

    The Canadian military efforts were ultimately shut down and refocused on improving interoperability between the forces.

    Information provided by the Department of National Defence shows the Canada-U.S. Integrated Forces program was led at the highest levels, with then Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Tom Lawson and the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey (now retired), meeting on "several occasions" to hash out a plan that included an option for "fully integrated forces."

    On Monday, CBC News reported that the Canadian military had been working on a plan to create a binational integrated military force with the U.S., under which air, sea, land and special operations forces would be jointly deployed under unified command outside Canada.
    dempseylawson

    Now retired U.S. general Martin Dempsey, left, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and retired general Tom Lawson, former chief of the defence staff, had met on a number of occasions to discuss a program of integration. (Reuters)

    That force was described by a military source as a deliberate arrangement, scaled according to the nature of the conflict it expected to face, with formally established rules for command and control and logistics.

    Discussion of the plans for an integrated unit was contained in an October 2013 briefing note prepared by the military's Strategic Joint Staff and obtained through access to information.
    Government not part of discussions

    Daniel Proussalidis, a spokesman from the defence minister's office, said in an email to CBC News Monday the document was not presented to the defence minister and the government has not considered its contents.
    Ukraine Cda Training 20150414

    Defence Minister Jason Kenney and Gen. Tom Lawson speak to the media in Ottawa in April. The Defence Department says the government was not part of high-level discussions to integrate Canadian and U.S. forces for missions abroad. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

    "The government has neither expressed interest in the concept of Canada-U.S. force integration nor directed exploration of it," Proussalidis told CBC News.

    A Conservative spokesman also said the party had no desire to establish a "standing integrated force."

    But the new information from the Defence Department shows the planning was deliberate and sustained, and it happened at the highest levels of both forces.

    Those two comments raise the possibility the plan was being pursued without the specific direction or approval of the Conservative government.

    The Defence Department says three different concepts were reviewed:

    Enhancing military interoperability and co-operation.
    Creating an integrated force of specially designated national units to deploy abroad.
    "Fully integrated forces."

    A fully integrated force could be politically dangerous in Canada, where there are perennial concerns about the quality of a bilateral relationship described by some as akin to sharing a bed with an elephant.
    Concerns over Canadian control

    There would also be deep concerns about maintaining national control over the Canadian Forces, particularly as it relates to questions about the use of force and varying interpretations of international law.

    In the end, the Defence Department says, "Gen. Lawson indicated that Canada was not prepared to field fully integrated land forces at this time."

    "The two armies do not intend to field formally integrated forces at this time," wrote DND spokesman Dominique Tessier in an email.

    "Instead, they are developing the capability to operate together on any mission authorized by the government of Canada. Canada-U.S. co-operation is excellent; we are trying to make it better."
    OP Nanook 20120824

    Canada and the United States have long maintained fully integrated air forces in the form of the North American Aerospace Defence command, a binational unit that protects the air approaches to the continent.

    Norad commanders are able to deploy and control forces of each other's militaries in pursuit of the goal of common defence.

    Norad has also assumed increasing responsibility to provide warning and target information for naval forces that protect the maritime approaches to North America.

    But those efforts are focused on defence; the integrated forces planning was for expeditionary forces to be deployed on operations overseas.

    The Defence Department says the planning began as an attempt to maintain the level of interoperability with U.S. forces achieved during the long war in Afghanistan.

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    This is new? 4 Brigade was US 7th Corps reserves. 3 PPCLI flushed out the 187th Infantry Regiment (Rakkasan). Regular Officer exchange. 1 Brigade's CO for a time was a USMC Colonel.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Oct 15, at 06:21.
    Chimo

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    DCG of III Corps is a Brit. Yup we do it all of the time.

    One area where it is not a good idea is all of the way to the crew level. The 5th Air Force tried that early in WW 2 in the SW Pacific with flight crews. They mixed USAAF, RAAF & RNZAF crews and efficiency dropped off the table.

    There needs to be a level of unit cohesion.

    Also logistics needs to be taken into consideration. Ammo, fuel and water usually have no issues. Same with initial medical evacuation. But beyond that level there are a lot of other things which need to be worked out. Spare parts are a big concern, as are batteries for radios, sights, etc. Food would seemingly not be an issue...but there is no alcohol in US units (see what happens when you tell that to a French rifle platoon!!!) and there are some dietary restraints. Evacuation of remains also have strict national and cultural guidelines.

    I am not saying it is not doable...but the shooting and maneuvering is the easy part.

    Its all of the "other" stuff which can get you killed.
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    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Water?

    There is different water that can be an issue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    This is new? 4 Brigade was US 7th Corps reserves. 3 PPCLI flushed out the 187th Infantry Regiment (Rakkasan). Regular Officer exchange. 1 Brigade's CO for a time was a USMC Colonel.
    The news is that integration was being considered on a permanent basis, and for every unit in Canadian forces.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Water?

    There is different water that can be an issue?
    Yes. The Canadians, being from the great white north, prefer water melted from the snow. It gives a crisp clean taste and reminds them of home on the frozen tundra.

    We Americans like our ground water. The prairie triple filters rain water and ages in underground aquifer for decades before we extract it to quench our thirst on a hot summer day in the heartland.

    The danger of mixing the water is very real. Canadians cannot handle the intense earthiness and heat in the aged ground water from the American aquifer. Ever seen an Eskimo sunbathe in the middle of August under the Vegas sun? Neither have I. But I have read about German tourists taking a stroll in Death Valley during the summer months armed with nothing but lukewarm beer. The result wasn't pretty.

    On the other hand, the ice cold Canadian mountain spring water would slow down American metabolism to the point where we will only have enough energy to eat chili off a tailgate cookoff and then watch the Green Bay Packers slip and slide on the frozen Lambeau Field in the dead of winter. Have you ever been with a bunch of Americans after they had a chili eating contest? You wouldn't even want to light up an e-cig....
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    The Americans tend to bring bottled water. Canadians bring a water purification truck. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Bottled water doesn't have to rely on finding a local water source but it consumes space like crazy.

    Water purification might take less space but depending on how dirty the water is, it clogs the filters up the ying-yang and reduces the supply flow.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Yes. The Canadians, being from the great white north, prefer water melted from the snow. It gives a crisp clean taste and reminds them of home on the frozen tundra.

    We Americans like our ground water. The prairie triple filters rain water and ages in underground aquifer for decades before we extract it to quench our thirst on a hot summer day in the heartland.

    The danger of mixing the water is very real. Canadians cannot handle the intense earthiness and heat in the aged ground water from the American aquifer. Ever seen an Eskimo sunbathe in the middle of August under the Vegas sun? Neither have I. But I have read about German tourists taking a stroll in Death Valley during the summer months armed with nothing but lukewarm beer. The result wasn't pretty.

    On the other hand, the ice cold Canadian mountain spring water would slow down American metabolism to the point where we will only have enough energy to eat chili off a tailgate cookoff and then watch the Green Bay Packers slip and slide on the frozen Lambeau Field in the dead of winter. Have you ever been with a bunch of Americans after they had a chili eating contest? You wouldn't even want to light up an e-cig....
    Canadians also can't drink fire water like Americans do:


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    Triple filtered by God, Guns, and Chuck Norris.
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    Geez, all this from a water question. Never thought of this to be an issue.

    But hey, I'm a civvie and can have a beer or single-malt.

    P.S. Don't come to me with ice debate. Please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The Americans tend to bring bottled water. Canadians bring a water purification truck. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
    The German solution is to bring a water purification truck - and a second truck with a mobile bottling plant.

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    We actually do both. Purification for bulk. And we have the ability to build water farms...I have seen them. But bottled water is easier to move by pallet and transload to aircraft.

    And you may have noticed I said water is NOT a commodity which is an issue.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    We actually do both. Purification for bulk. And we have the ability to build water farms...I have seen them. But bottled water is easier to move by pallet and transload to aircraft.

    And you may have noticed I said water is NOT a commodity which is an issue.
    I remember watching some show about a combat outpost in A-stan. There were pallets of bottled water in all over the base. I hope they have a special recycle bin for all that plastic. We don't want to make Green Peace angry.
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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Geez, all this from a water question. Never thought of this to be an issue.

    But hey, I'm a civvie and can have a beer or single-malt.

    P.S. Don't come to me with ice debate. Please.
    Some people like scotch on the rocks. They say the "cold" opens up the flavor. I thought the ice distracts me from enjoying the flavor of the scotch.

    I do prefer cold sake and frozen vodka. Sake is light enough to be crisp and clear like water with some flavor. Vodka, being from the frozen tundra, should be ice cold.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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