Religious offshoot argument from American Elections

[GVChamp]

What you're telling Mihais is not to take pride in his culture, which is a great way to make sure your culture is replaced, by people who actually do like their culture and are willing to fight for it.

Good luck with that.

[Mihais]

DOR,Chinese tradition is not European tradition.We had material progress and spiritual consistence.One can be improved by innovation and work.The other is pretty much eternal,since human nature isn't changed.And making some tweaks isn't in the same league with destruction.
Simply put,much of the social reforms of the last decades can't be sustained.Not because it is something new,but because they were tried before and failed.We tend to call those ages decadent.

[antimony]

And by doing so have redefined the meaning of marriage. 'Conservative' by its nature is in part conservation of values. Those who decline an equality of 'equal but distinct', such as civil union distinct but equal to marriage, instead choose to break down the meaning of 'marriage' for those who hold such things dear. Rather than create something new, they break what exists.

How exactly is this affecting the lives of conservatives, except that knowing that some gay couple, somewhere is now allowed to call what they have "marriage"?
Conservatives (and anyone else) have the option of continuing with their traditional version of marriage while accepting that someone else is going ahead with a "nontraditional version".

Lets take the Kim Davis case. She has the option of not issuing licences herself but allowed her deputies to take their own decision. But no, she had to clamp down on the whole county office and impose her rule on everyone.

To quote Cracked:http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/a...g-affects-you/

If You Are a Heterosexual Who Suffers Anger or Anxiety at the Thought of Gay Couples Getting Married as an Abstract Concept, and Believes the Only Cure Is to Legally Prevent Gay Marriage:
This decision will cause you some degree of anger or anxiety. Otherwise, this decision does not affect you in any way.

[antimony]

What you're telling Mihais is not to take pride in his culture, which is a great way to make sure your culture is replaced, by people who actually do like their culture and are willing to fight for it.

Good luck with that.

Wait a minute, exactly where did I tell Mihais not to take pride in his culture? Please point it out. All I said is that in a modern pluralistic, multicultural, diverse society, he should not impose his culture on mine. For example, he can choose not to drink on a Sunday, he should not try to force that on me.

If you are against pluralism, multiculturalism, secularism and diversity just go ahead and say so. Maybe you prefer a Christian version of KSA

[antimony]

Simply put,much of the social reforms of the last decades can't be sustained.Not because it is something new,but because they were tried before and failed.We tend to call those ages decadent.

So gay rights, women's empowerment, universal franchise, abolition of child marriage, polygamy and caste systems are all going to be rolled back then?

[Mihais]

Mother Reality will roll back most of those,not me.Like I said,nobody ever changed his opinions debating.You have your views and you'll keep them.Same with us.Time will prove who's right.50 years is way to short of a period.But there are already some cracks visible.

[GVChamp]

Wait a minute, exactly where did I tell Mihais not to take pride in his culture? Please point it out. All I said is that in a modern pluralistic, multicultural, diverse society, he should not impose his culture on mine. For example, he can choose not to drink on a Sunday, he should not try to force that on me.

If you are against pluralism, multiculturalism, secularism and diversity just go ahead and say so. Maybe you prefer a Christian version of KSA

Yes, he should, that's how Westphalian Nation-States work. If you don't like his culture, move to a different State where your Nation rules. That's why your Nation got its own state. You don't have a right to complain about your lifestyle being restricted in a different State, because that State does not belong to your Nation.

[antimony]

Mother Reality will roll back most of those,not me.Like I said,nobody ever changed his opinions debating.You have your views and you'll keep them.Same with us.Time will prove who's right.50 years is way to short of a period.But there are already some cracks visible.

I myself have changes my views on homosexuality/gay marriage (I have become very liberal), and gun control (slightly more conservative i.e less support for gun control) after discussion and exposure to different views and data. You are of course free to be set in your ways. That's pluralism. Just don't spoil my ride.

[antimony]

Yes, he should, that's how Westphalian Nation-States work. If you don't like his culture, move to a different State where your Nation rules. That's why your Nation got its own state. You don't have a right to complain about your lifestyle being restricted in a different State, because that State does not belong to your Nation.

No he does not. That is not how either the US Constitution or most other liberal democracies work. His likes and desires do not rule over my rights.

If you intend to stick to that line, then why don't we have the entire American Public weigh on whether to have expanded background checks on gun ownership and to hell with the 2nd amendment. Like that idea?

And while you are at it, define how you concept of NAtion and State are relevant here.

[Doktor]

I'd take those locations with a grain of salt. They are isolated pockets scattered throughout the country which should be no surprise in a large, diverse country. It simply represents local opinion which can change quite a bit when the question is rephrased using US borders instead. Classic example is Berkeley and San Francisco which most everyone in the U.S. would go ahuh.

Yet, we had a woman killed in the City awhile back by an illegal alien who found a Federal Officers gun somewhere. He had been across and deported several times with a record. The S.F. Sheriff had him in custody and released without checking with the Feds. Now there is a lot of finger pointing and reassessing sticking strictly to not working with the Feds. Oh, and the Sheriff is one super big jackass so he has no political cover but he does like his uniform. Reminds me of II Duce every time I see him on TV.

For 25 years S.F.has this law. That's one nice pocket for a quarter century and they are not alone.

I am familiar with the case.

[Doktor]

Wait a minute, exactly where did I tell Mihais not to take pride in his culture? Please point it out. All I said is that in a modern pluralistic, multicultural, diverse society, he should not impose his culture on mine. For example, he can choose not to drink on a Sunday, he should not try to force that on me.

If you are against pluralism, multiculturalism, secularism and diversity just go ahead and say so. Maybe you prefer a Christian version of KSA

You are pulling some logical fallacy here.

First of all Kim is not the first clerk to have a problem with gay marriages. She is the first to express it publicly and go on and on to the point to defy court order. Therr were cases where all the clerks resigned.

Nobody had an issue with civil union, but many had issue the marriage to be redifined as a union between same sexes.

[Mihais]

No he does not. That is not how either the US Constitution or most other liberal democracies work. His likes and desires do not rule over my rights.

If you intend to stick to that line, then why don't we have the entire American Public weigh on whether to have expanded background checks on gun ownership and to hell with the 2nd amendment. Like that idea?

And while you are at it, define how you concept of NAtion and State are relevant here.

GV has a point.States and even moreso nation-states exist to protect an identity.Culture,customs,religions etc.. and people believing in those ideals existed there before you are born.You imposing destructive change to suit your way is basically aggression.If you don't like it,move.

Your problem is that lefties everywhere are clone like.You heard one from Australia,you can bet the house one in Slovenia will say the same things with the same words.This very egalitarian way is by default a threat to any local identity.How can this basic problem be solved while keeping everyone happy,I don't know.

[antimony]

GV has a point.States and even moreso nation-states exist to protect an identity.Culture,customs,religions etc.. and people believing in those ideals existed there before you are born.You imposing destructive change to suit your way is basically aggression.If you don't like it,move.

I defy you to find anything in the constitution of a liberal democracy that says that I have to move if my culture does not agree with that of the locals.

Your problem is that lefties everywhere are clone like.You heard one from Australia,you can bet the house one in Slovenia will say the same things with the same words.This very egalitarian way is by default a threat to any local identity.How can this basic problem be solved while keeping everyone happy,I don't know.

I am certainly not a leftie, my economic viewpoint would certainly be right of center. Now lets solve your problem.

Someone doing things their own way and not hurting others does not threaten local identity.

If I want to watch MTV instead of reruns "The Life of Muhammad" or "Jesus Lives : The Bible Years", that is my business. My eating burgers and fries instead of borscht (or whatever local dish) does not threaten your culture.

[Doktor]

By all means vote no guns.

On one hand the war on drugs retracts to legalizing them, but on the other you wanna ban and/or control guns.
Good luck.

[Doktor]

I defy you to find anything in the constitution of a liberal democracy that says that I have to move if my culture does not agree with that of the locals.



I am certainly not a leftie, my economic viewpoint would certainly be right of center. Now lets solve your problem.

Someone doing things their own way and not hurting others does not threaten local identity.

If I want to watch MTV instead of reruns "The Life of Muhammad" or "Jesus Lives : The Bible Years", that is my business. My eating burgers and fries instead of borscht (or whatever local dish) does not threaten your culture.

Go ahead, watch MTV, or whatever you wanna watch, live with another man if that's your thing, but when you want to call it a marriage it ruins someone elses perception of that institution.