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Thread: Russia claims new tank invisible to radar/IR

  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Nor, unsurprisingly, is this 28 panfilovtsev, anything but propaganda: It is certainly not an accurate depiction as you claim. For starters not all of them died; two (Kuzhebergenov and Dobrobabin) were later interviewed by the NKVD (KGB predecessor) for alleged contacts with the enemy. Later a commission found 4 others still alive... The military judge who lead the commission of inquiry, Lieutenant-General Nikolai Afanasyev, concluded the whole story "did not occur. It was a pure fantasy." These inconvenient facts you were presumably unaware of when describing the the film as accurate... but I somewhat doubt that.
    Snapper, dear. Please take your time. Lots of documents are available. Read them. Yes, the story of 28 man killing 18 tanks in Red Star written in December 1941 was misleading. Soviet millitary investigation of 1950es documented what was there. It was not a judge but a prosecutor making an inquiry of documents from Soviet and German archives + interviewing SOME (many were not interviewed) people who were there. They stated that story of 28 was wrong, however HE NEVER doubted that battle took place. (what you mean "did not occur" ?)

    Facts:

    1) battle at Dubosekovo, Petelino, Shyryaevo took place. Germand size 2nd Panzer Div, Soviet side regiment 1075 of 316th Panfilov div.
    2) regiment lost around 400 men that day, and 4th company at Dubosekovo lost 100 of them (also most of personnel was lost by 45mm AT battery at Dubosekovo).
    3) 1st Group of 2nd Panzer div lost between 12 and 18 tanks + around 250 soldiers of which over 150 dead.

    Losses on both sides are documented. If these losses don't make a battle for you then WHAT IS A BATTLE which OCCUR?

    So what do you want to argue about here?

    And 316th Div had a lot of Ukrainians!!!! lots of Ukrainians. They fought there and died in that battle. Like a real man. Whatever your nazi believes are today (Ms Azov lover). Please for god sake don't insult their honor....

    ps. I don't want to continue discussion with you on on this topic. Others topics are welcomed.
    ps. 2. Every tenth soldier of Panfilov's division was Ukrainian
    Last edited by Garry; 25 Nov 16, at 10:20.

  2. #437
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    I simply do not believe statements such as "This movie comes closest to what actually happened then in November 1941..." without even mentioning some of the other 'inconvenient facts' gives a clear and unbiased approximation of whatever the truth may be. Much the same as carte blanche labelling the war in Donbass as a "civil war" without mentioning any of the other 'inconvenient facts' is nothing but a type of RT propaganda - it is not representing even half the facts and so has no relation to any objective truth.

  3. #438
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    if you are interested to read what happened there and how did 316th div could withstand against 2 infantry and 2 panzer divs on Volokolamsk highway. You can read good book by Alexander Bek about Gen Panfilov tactics.

    https://www.amazon.com/Volokolamsk-H.../dp/B0006CHYD8
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...olamsk_Highway

  4. #439
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    Also to call me an "Azov lover" is a bit like saying that Churchill was a 'Bolshevik lover'. He fundamentally was not because as he said they would have murdered him and his family and stood against all the history and liberties that to Churchill was important. I am not a Muslim either but have nothing against Chechen's fighting for Ukraine; as Churchill said "if Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." We are fortunate in Ukraine where - as opposed to say France - the far right on average receives the support of less than 5% of voters. Nor are Azov entirely 'nationalist' in the ordinary sense since they advocate - and organised a conference about - the intermarium idea which is a federalist or at least con-federalist idea by definition and should theoretically therefore be anathema to any normal 'nationalist' movement or whatever they want to call themselves. For myself I hope next year to join the Democratic Alliance which is led by people like Mustafa Nayeem and Svitlana Zalishchuk... the 'young reformers' as it were.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I do not know who you think you are fooling any more.... A 'little green man' who is actually a soldier, payed, supplied and taking orders from Moscow in their national forces is still a Muscovite soldier whether he wears insignia or not. You may recall that Putin admitted that the 'little green men' in Crimea were Muscovite troops. The International Criminal Court last week classed Muscovite presence in Crimea as "occupation" further adding "The Russian federation employed members of its armed forces to gain control over parts of the territory of Ukraine without the consent of the government of Ukraine." We have identified 75 unite of the so called 'Russian' army that have been or are in Donbass now - the whole chain of command is controlled directly by the Muscovite army. Buryats, serving within the Muscovite army, do not up and off half a continent to take part in a battle without help or orders.... You are no longer fooling anyone so stop trying to fool yourself.
    Yeah, I'm as skeptical as they come...but to deny Moscow's full-fledged involvement in Donbas is fanciful, for the reasons Snapper listed.

    Eventually Putin will come clean, just as he did with Crimea. In the meantime, sure, it's all "Wink wink, nudge nudge"...but the Kremlin couldn't fool a small child.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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