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  • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
    Cutting off naval shiping in the Bosphorus? There's a legal way for Turkey to do that?...



    Otoh, guided munitions have completely transformed the way any war is fought. At the heigh of the Cold War, it would take (for example) a flight of our old A-7P a pass with a full dumb-bomb loads to cause serious damage to (for example) a mech platoon. Today, a single F-16MLU would fire LGBs or missiles from X miles away, 1 per tank...
    Except you still have to find the tank or any target, not always easy to do. Lethality and accuracy are all great but acquiring the target isn't that the hard part.
    Last edited by Dazed; 15 Jun 16,, 18:23.

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    • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
      Otoh, guided munitions have completely transformed the way any war is fought. At the heigh of the Cold War, it would take (for example) a flight of our old A-7P a pass with a full dumb-bomb loads to cause serious damage to (for example) a mech platoon. Today, a single F-16MLU would fire LGBs or missiles from X miles away, 1 per tank...
      In a heavily air contested envioroment? I don't care how good the F-22s are, no one is bombing anything until the skies are cleared of enemy birds. Hell, even the AWACS would make a run for it if they see a flight of SU-27s rushing them.

      And the Russians invented hugging tactics.
      Chimo

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      • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
        Cutting off naval shiping in the Bosphorus? There's a legal way for Turkey to do that?...
        I am not an lawyer myself but have been told by those who have sought the best legal advice that it would be legal. Some old Treaty - Montreux Convention I think offhand - still applies. But if they really want to close the Straits they will close them and argue the legal niceties later of course, the law being 9/10th possession.

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        • Originally posted by officer of engineers View Post
          i want the like button.
          double like
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • A side note...what impact will BREXIT have on NATO?

            Probably need a separate thread for that.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

            Comment


            • Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Of course the insanity is that while the Baltics are currently indefencible - and it seems that is unlikely to change; "We will agree on the deployment by rotation of four robust multinational battalions to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland." http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_132351.htm the Dnipro is defencible and currently being defended. The Straits at Constantinople could be closed - stifling Muscovite operations in Syria (this would not be illegal I am informed) - SWIFT cut off/North Stream 2 stopped/dirty Muscovite money (much of it in London) found and confiscated etc etc etc. We could cripple them without a shot while moving deterrent forces into CEE.
              Think you're missing the point about the Baltics. They are militarily indefensible because there's nothing military to defend. They are at best a side action. Both the Russians and us would aiming to destroy each other's centres of force and those centres are in Poland and Russia/Belarus. The Baltics are nothing more than conduits to get to those centres. It would be idiotic to place forces so far from your strongpoints that does nothing to collapse the bad guys.
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 16 Jun 16,, 00:29.
              Chimo

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              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                What in your view would make them defensible?
                The absolutely only thing that makes them defensible is an imperial patron willing to die for them. They have 3 choices, the US (NATO), the EU (NATO but different patronage) or Russia. Pick one.

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                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Think you're missing the point about the Baltics. They are militarily indefensible because there's nothing military to defend. They are at best a side action. Both the Russians and us would aiming to destroy each other's centres of force and those centres are in Poland and Russia/Belarus. The Baltics are nothing more than conduits to get to those centres. It would be idiotic to place forces so far from your strongpoints that does nothing to collapse the bad guys.
                  Russia's CoG militarily right now is Kaliningrad Oblast. A NATO build up in the Baltic's strong enough to stop a for real Russian assault is strong enough to threaten the Russian flank.

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                  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                    A side note...what impact will BREXIT have on NATO?

                    Probably need a separate thread for that.
                    Probably minimal other than short term economic shock. The British can leave the EU, but they will still be part of the common market which is a separate treaty.

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                    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Probably minimal other than short term economic shock. The British can leave the EU, but they will still be part of the common market which is a separate treaty.
                      But everything I have seen shows that the UK will have to renegotiate a myriad of trade agreements which are abrogated by BREXIT. And that includes defense deals.

                      That has to include NATO impacts.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Think you're missing the point about the Baltics. They are militarily indefensible because there's nothing military to defend. They are at best a side action. Both the Russians and us would aiming to destroy each other's centres of force and those centres are in Poland and Russia/Belarus.
                        Touch Muscovite 'sovereign territory' and you risk tactical nuclear retaliation, per their doctrine, but indeed theoretically I agree; straight for Minsk in some scenarios. Belarus must therefore be 'won over' one way or another.


                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        The absolutely only thing that makes them defensible is an imperial patron willing to die for them. They have 3 choices, the US (NATO), the EU (NATO but different patronage) or Russia. Pick one.
                        Intermarium.

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                        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                          But everything I have seen shows that the UK will have to renegotiate a myriad of trade agreements which are abrogated by BREXIT. And that includes defense deals.

                          That has to include NATO impacts.
                          UK to renegotiate NATO deals in case of Brexit? They'd be leaving the economic union, not the military one.
                          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                          • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                            Intermarium.
                            You are not serious, it's a mini-combo from 1 and 2
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              UK to renegotiate NATO deals in case of Brexit? They'd be leaving the economic union, not the military one.
                              I am talking about joint ventures and business ties which get severed because the trade agreement is between the United States & the EU, not the United States & Great Britain. That trade agreement would have to be renegotiated because with BREXIT the prior agreements are null and void.

                              Economic changes will ALWAYS have political and military impacts.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                                Intermarium.
                                Poland is not going to march into Belarus. In fact, I have a hard time picturing they would come to liberate the Baltics. The closest power that can do it is Germany and even they would be looking to bypass the Baltics to get to Belarus.
                                Chimo

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