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Thread: Germany's Refugee Crisis

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    Again, why your government and those others with will and capacity to accept these people, don't let them come by plane?
    It's perfectly legal for a refugee to come to Germany by plane.

    However, under EU law, if a person's asylum request is rejected the company that transported them is held liable for transporting them back (and under German law, gets a fine of up to 2000 Euro per person for human trafficking). Hence why airlines don't let refugees aboard.

    Regarding trafficking: Germany, since the beginning of 2014, has opened trials against 3200 traffickers. Around 700 are currently in pre-trial custody in Bavaria alone. Most of them are Hungarians, Romanian and Bulgarian (in that order).

    Merkel is currently talking about kicking states that refuse to take in their part out of Schengen. Pretty much everyone east of Germany and Austria. The Austrian chancellor - along with Juncker - wants us to instead no longer finance their governments through EU subsidies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    have patience until the next Racak like incident happens.
    ... you know, the entire conundrum of the pretext for the Yugoslav air campaign is highly contested over here (even in pro-intervention circles) and considered to at least partially have been a fabrication of the left-wing government we had back then. Together with NATO and the Bulgarian government. To some extent it's considered our local version of what Colin Powell did in 2003.

  2. #47
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    I know.Just it doesn't matter to the Anglo-Saxon world,or Germans for that matter,that will easily cry fascism, barbarism etc.. at the first incident between natives and 3d world people.That will be used to justify interventions,sanctions or restriction of freedoms.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  3. #48
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    If the west truly wanted to help these migrants it would be wiser to kick Assad out of Syria and get rid of ISL, as we should have done when Assad crossed Obama's 'line' by using chemical weapons 2-3yrs ago. When you allow a war to continue for 4yrs with 100s of 1000s of casualties you should not be surprised when extremist factions arise and migrants start flowing out of the area.

  4. #49
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    60% of refugees coming to Germany are Yugoslavians, 20% are predominantly Christians from various south-of-Sahel African countries that used to live in various North African countries until everyone except Germany decided to fuel the "Arab Spring". The remaining 20% are Syrians and Afghanis. There's a small amount of Pakistanis too, but we mostly deport those.
    Why are the Yugoslavians, or former Yugoslavians, leaving that place? What's going on there? I thought we're done with bombing them.

    Arab Spring, what a fucking fiasco. I was against it from day one.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  5. #50
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Why remove Assad?So that instead of muslim factions that can't cope with IS or outright infiltrators we'd get millions of Christians,Allawites,Yazidis or Kurds?
    Also,these politruks can't stomach to order the border police to do its legal obligation by forcing these guys to respect the border at gunpoint.What you say means invading the Levant,killing a million at least from them and a few thousands of our own,spending another trillion and making everyone unite against us.And all of this being pointless and solving nothing in the medium and long term.

    What we have here is simple and happened before.A stronger tribe defeats a weaker one,that in turn invades another land.We'll get this wave,another in A-stan and mostly we'll start getting from Africa on an even larger scale than now.

    What we ought to do is throw everyone out,even if it means giving everyone a few tens of thousands bucks,create a safety zone in NA and halting every ship coming across Med.

    You delay this,you'll get a European wide Kosovo.Experience,demographics,economics and culture converge towards such a nasty outcome.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  6. #51
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Why are the Yugoslavians, or former Yugoslavians, leaving that place? What's going on there? I thought we're done with bombing them.

    Arab Spring, what a fucking fiasco. I was against it from day one.
    You ''liberated'' Kosovo.You sponsored them 15 years to do nothing but breed,build mosques to become radicalized and do the usual criminal stuff to escape boredom.Now there are too many young men and too few goodies.Since the suckers don't pay tribute anymore,they get out to take it themselves.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    If the west truly wanted to help these migrants it would be wiser to kick Assad out of Syria
    You mean like Libya, which won't recover from what you've done to it for decades?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Why are the Yugoslavians, or former Yugoslavians, leaving that place? What's going on there?
    I recommend reading this extensive article for some background.

    In short: Kosovo has 70% unemployment for under-30-year-olds, half the country's GDP is provided by the diaspora sending back money. Albania has mafia structures on a violence level similar to Central America (and has an average hourly wage of €2, with something like 20% of the population living off of less than €2 per day). From Serbia we get Roma who are treated like dirt there and seek a safe haven to make it over the winter. Macedonia has an authoritarian national-conservative government that employs around 25-30% of the working population just to give them jobs, with an average income in the country of around 10 Euro per day - and the unemployment rate ist still around 30%. Bosnia is in much the same situation as Macedonia (with more ethnic unrest added) and had violent clashes for two months last year due to the economic situation, which included government buildings being set on fire in a number of cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    we'd get millions of Christians,Allawites,Yazidis or Kurds?
    Due to the war Germany by now probably already has the second-largest Yazidi population worldwide (after Iraq, ahead of Syria).

  8. #53
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    You ''liberated'' Kosovo.You sponsored them 15 years to do nothing but breed,build mosques to become radicalized and do the usual criminal stuff to escape boredom.Now there are too many young men and too few goodies.Since the suckers don't pay tribute anymore,they get out to take it themselves.
    I was against our involvement in Yugoslavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    I recommend reading this extensive article for some background.

    In short: Kosovo has 70% unemployment for under-30-year-olds, half the country's GDP is provided by the diaspora sending back money. Albania has mafia structures on a violence level similar to Central America (and has an average hourly wage of €2, with something like 20% of the population living off of less than €2 per day). From Serbia we get Roma who are treated like dirt there and seek a safe haven to make it over the winter. Macedonia has an authoritarian national-conservative government that employs around 25-30% of the working population just to give them jobs, with an average income in the country of around 10 Euro per day - and the unemployment rate ist still around 30%. Bosnia is in much the same situation as Macedonia (with more ethnic unrest added) and had violent clashes for two months last year due to the economic situation, which included government buildings being set on fire in a number of cities.
    Aha, so that's like your Mexico and the rest of central America.

    Actually I don't mind Mexicans coming over. Most of them are catholics and are here to work. Only a small fraction are trouble makers.
    Last edited by gunnut; 04 Sep 15, at 20:09.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  9. #54
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    gunnut, you may not have to worry.

    At a Berlin church, Muslim refugees converting in droves

    Mohammed is now Martin — no longer Muslim, but Christian.

    Zonoobi, a carpenter from the Iranian city of Shiraz, arrived in Germany with his wife and two children five months ago. He is one of hundreds of mostly Iranian and Afghan asylum seekers who have converted to Christianity at the evangelical Trinity Church in a leafy Berlin neighborhood.
    This fellow and his family are from Iran. Now, Iran isn't Syria or Iraq. There is no war going on. So from whence come the "Refugees" who need "asylum"?

    Like Zonoobi, most say true belief prompted their embrace of Christianity. But there's no overlooking the fact that the decision will also greatly boost their chances of winning asylum by allowing them to claim they would face persecution if sent home.
    So this is basically a scam. Illegal immigrants looking for a better life in Europe trying to disguise themselves as "asylum seekers". After their conversion, they might get it as well, since they can claim that Christians are persecuted in Iran.

    Europeans need to prune the list of countries from where they accept asylum seekers. The really needy ones are lost in a sea of illegal immigrants in search of jobs, who aren't actually being persecuted.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 04 Sep 15, at 21:19.

  10. #55
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Kato,

    Albania was never a part of Yugoslavia.
    Well, in a sense Kosovo wasn't either.
    Romas from Serbia and Macedonia were never treated better here, not saying it is good now, but better, why they flee now in such numbers?

    Oh, and if our guys are 60% and Syrians alone are 800 000, dont you think we would be left without unemployed? Come open a company here and find workers. Yep, good luck with that. But, hey, it's your pension on the line.

    About authoritarian regimes here, how many Hungarians you got lately? Or Turks?

    You are hitting the stereotypes and some are well founded, but there has to be something your gov does that attratcts people to go only towards Germany.

    BTW, how many Greek guys you've got? The unemployment is real over there and rising.
    Last edited by Doktor; 04 Sep 15, at 23:45.
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    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  11. #56
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    Let's see, let me dig out the last migration report from the government...

    Hungary: Was pretty solid at about 15,000 until 2006. Then went to about 25,000 until 2010. Then Orban was elected with his current government, and immigrants to Germany doubled to their current number of 60,000 per year; about the same number at this point left Hungary for other EU countries. Hungary is bleeding out, especially since 80% of those emigrating are under 30. About 1.6% of Hungarian nationals live in Germany, currently 160,000.
    Turkey: Went down to about 25,000 in 2008, and has stayed there since then. The political angle - the election of AKP in 2007 - is coincidental here though; since 2007, Germany has required family members of Turks moving to Germany (e.g. spouses) to prove German language knowledge, which basically cut the immigrant number in half. This was successfully contested in court last year, so we'll probably see a rise back to the longterm standard 50,000 within two to three years. About 2% of Turkish nationals live in Germany, currently 1.5 million.
    Greece: Was around 10,000 until the economic crisis, then rose to 23,000 by 2011 and 32,000 by 2012. Has stayed at around 33,000 since then. About 3% of Greek nationals live in Germany, currently 330,000.

    For comparison, immigration from the non-EU-members on the Balkan (Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania) was around 60,000 until the economic crisis, then rose steadily to around 90,000 per year. In the first half of this year we got about that many just in the refugee camps, and with the onsetting winter down there that'll rise sharply.

    (note: all numbers = annual gross immigration)

    Where do you get 800,000 Syrians btw? We got 42,000 till July, with the way our government is positioning itself probably 100,000 by the end of the year.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    This fellow and his family are from Iran. Now, Iran isn't Syria or Iraq. There is no war going on. So from whence come the "Refugees" who need "asylum"?
    The asylum recognition quota for Iran is around 50%. The number of asylum seekers from Iran is pretty much nil when compared to its population (last year around 0.0064% of the population, compared to e.g. 0.03% of Iraq's or Afghanistan's population, or 0.18% of the Syrian population).

  13. #58
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    I really think you guys are missing the wood for the trees so to speak on the whole Syria migrant business. I assume most are aware of the proposed Qatari gas pipeline to Europe that HAD to go via Syria as the Gulf Arabs cannot trust the Persian Shi'ite theocracy who are busy busy building nuclear weapons. Well Assad and his co religionists (particularly his family of course) are semi Shi'ites and have been getting rich on Syria for years. Naturally ordinary Syrians (the majority of whom are Sunni) wanted a better life anyway from the kleptocratic Assad one so Gulf Arabs had no problem causing the original (peaceful) demonstrations. For both Iran, being a Shi'ite theocracy and Moscow's point of view this is bad (the Muscovites also had a naval port of call on the Levantine coast of Syria at Tartus) and naturally they did not wish the Qataris supplying gas to Europe (same as Georgia - Caspian 2008 and subsequent). Iranian Revolutionary Guards units were in Syria almost from the start and Moscow refused to stop arms exports.

    So Obama drew his famous "red line" on the use of chemical weapons, Assad breached it and then Putin came up with a compromise of controlled destruction of the chemical weapons. Obama bought the compromise because he didn't, in my view, understand the greater geo strategic game or perhaps because he was concentrated on his Iranian 'restart' legacy he neglected future interests. To get the Iranians on side he needed the Muscovites and wisely or not he (or his people) chose to play one side of the Muscovite - Persian 'entente cordial' against the other. Syria got sacrificed for Muscovite help with Iran. In some ways Ukraine has suffered the same from this need to get the Putin regime 'on board' with Iran which Obama no doubt sees as the last hope of his whole 'restart' policy of foreign affairs. Basically the whole she bang - the Qatari gas pipeline and the Saudis and recently Israel has now been sacrificed for this Iranian 'deal' part of which they will "self administer." It is a dangerous choice and has already cost hundreds of thousands of Syrian lives and a migration to Europe that adds future risks in Europe when they are not needed but Obama in my view is not a 'long term' type of guy.

    The failure has not been intervening as such but not staying the course. We backed out of Libya again because of Moscow whom Obama needed for his Iran deal when the Italians were offering to take it over and build it up. If you go in and take out a regime, and sometimes this is not altogether the wrong option, you have to stay the course. But the reason why Assad was not removed was Iran and the need to get Moscow 'onside' and this now should, in my view, seeing Muscovite troops on the ground in Syria, a worthless Iranian deal and this mass migration of people to Europe (some of whom may be ISL or Al Qaida types) and the Muscovite aggression in Ukraine and blatant lies (now echoed by Assad) over Ukraine, must be regarded as having been a mistake of quite colossal proportions. When you draw a 'red line' you should be prepared to back it up or it makes others believe, rightly or wrongly, that you are weak and miscalculate their own moves perhaps. But Obama was never more than a glorified social worker with a few dubious degrees so perhaps we should have expected this.

    His whole administration has been played for a patsy on a grand scale and it is only because of Chinese economic mistakes and slow down - and their willingness to take advantage of Moscow's weakness (the Siberian Power pipeline is on hold at present) has this farcical foreign policy and basic lack of understanding in both the State Department of the US and the FCO of the UK been allowed to have any vestige of thought on any level. The truth is they never thought anything through, neither did anyone else to any real degree - the Italians had some forethought it should be said. Hence migrants and potentially suicide bombers flooding into Europe. Let us pray that the Iranian self inspecting regime works and that they are honest, though Moscow now says it will build another reactor there (as well as the S-300 missiles) in advance of sanctions ending. Frankly the 'west' has played this appallingly and mostly for Obama's 'legacy' not that that matters to the families of dead Syrians, Ukrainians, Kurds and Yemeni tribes. It will matter to those of us who have seen it's effects and survive. God willing we may learn from the mistakes.

  14. #59
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    I think you miss the point.These lads passed through Turkey and Greece unchecked.It is easily doable to provoke the wave,especially with the ''cooperation'' of those 2 governments.
    But let's not beat the bush too much with suspected Russian involvement.
    The EU is creaking and this invasion is only starting.Thw very foundations of modern Europe are meeting reality and the prove to be the farce its opponents knew they were.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  15. #60
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    My friend it is wiser to treat the cause of the disease than it's symptoms in my opinion.

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