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Thread: Germany's Refugee Crisis

  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    At what point do we decide we have enough people on the planet, or even in each country? A stable population is not the harbinger of death some would have you believe.
    Problem will be a decreasing (and ageing) population in many first world countries without immigration, not a stable one.

    That said I take your point, I wonder what the discussion among experts is about the ability of technology to replace labour moving forward and a transition to a world of declining global population that can still grow economically, unhindered by a lack of youth.

    Anyway, Germany may needs millions of people to fill their jobs over the coming decades, but the nature of their arrival is hardly ideal.

  2. #437
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    For heaven's sake,we're going to face increased automation.In the first world we also need a sustainable reproduction model.That can be changed via education,incentives and a change in public morality.All these 3 take at least a generation to have any effect.Meanwhile,instead of wasting money on these settlers,we can invest in technology.We can last a generation or so,until we have a normal distrubution.
    If anyone believes that different people are going to keep the Western civilization alive there are 2 basic problems.One is the lack of any natural desire of every living thing to survive and perpetuate.Two is the absence of any knowledge of history.
    Creating the conditions for an insurgency is not something our children will cherish us for.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  3. #438
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    Cologne imam: Women provoked sex attacks by 'wearing perfume' and being 'half-naked'

    A Salafist imam in Cologne has said victims of the New Year's Eve sexual assaults were partly responsible for the attacks. In a subsequent interview, Sami Abu-Yusuf has claimed his comments were "taken out of context."

    In an interview with Russian television channel REN TV, the Cologne imam said the attacks must be discussed "openly."

    "We mustn't attack each other," he said, warning that this would only "add fuel to the fire."

    Sami Abu-Yusuf also said one of the reasons why the men raped or assaulted the women was "due to the way they dressed."

    "If they're half-naked and wearing perfume, it's not surprising that such things would happen," Abu-Yusuf said.

    Comments 'out of context'

    The imam's comments were met with outrage on social media, with German Greens politician Volker Beck tweeting that Abu-Yusuf's claims were "misanthropy" and that he had filed a criminal complaint against the imam.

    In a follow-up interview with local Cologne paper "Express," the 42-year-old imam said his comments about the attacks had been "taken out of context."

    "There were scantily clad women who were wearing perfume as they walked through the drunken crowd. For some North Africans, this was reason to grope the women," Abu-Yusuf told "Express."

    "That doesn't mean that I think women shouldn't be allowed to dress like that," he added. "Everyone has to accept that. And if they don't agree, they need to go to another country. That's the truth."

    Ongoing investigation

    A 140-member team is currently investigating more than 800 legal complaints from Cologne's New Year's Eve celebrations, more than 350 of which are of a sexual nature.

    Witnesses in front of Cologne's main train station in the early hours of January 1 described many of the perpetrators as being of North African or Arab origin.

    In light of the attacks, women's rights groups have taken to the streets of Cologne in recent weeks to protest against violence directed at women. Organizers of the demonstrations have strived to highlight a wider problem, however, arguing that women are facing assaults and harassment on a daily basis, regardless of who's committing them.

    With huge Carnival celebrations in Cologne and other cities in less than two weeks, demand for over the counter self-defense products has also risen significantly in recent weeks, even selling out in some stores.

  4. #439
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    Oddly enough Abu-Yusuf has since issued a public statement in which he retracted the above - or rather in which he stated that REN TV took his words entirely out of context and mistranslated them. Which is actually somewhat believable given that Russian agitprop with regard to Germany and refugees recently seems to be focused on stirring things up.

    The guy and his mosque have been under domestic intelligence surveillance for years btw.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Oddly enough Abu-Yusuf has since issued a public statement in which he retracted the above - or rather in which he stated that REN TV took his words entirely out of context and mistranslated them. Which is actually somewhat believable given that Russian agitprop with regard to Germany and refugees recently seems to be focused on stirring things up.

    The guy and his mosque have been under domestic intelligence surveillance for years btw.
    I find that his views are quite common among Muslims, at least Arab Muslims from both North Africa and the Middle East. The mentality that independent women cant exist and that "she was asking for it" / "she deserved it" / "its her fault" etc when a woman is a victim of a sex crime is far more pronounced across Arab societies than Western or East Asian ones. I dont know about Latin America or Africa in general.

    But in Islamic societies in the MENA region Abu-Yusuf's contemptuous, jealous and controlling attitude towards women is very common and is often encouraged by Muslim clerics.

    He is clearly very mentally disturbed and doesnt belong in Germany or anywhere else in the EU.

  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1980s View Post
    He is clearly very mentally disturbed and doesnt belong in Germany or anywhere else in the EU.
    Eh, you'll find his opinions mirrored among traditionally conservative Germans. Especially women.

    In my opinion this is a publicity stunt on his side in order to put his name back on the table. He runs the smallest of the sunni-fundamentalist groups in the Cologne area, focused on the western Arab community, with the more prominent groups in the area mostly dominated by Germans (like Pierre Vogel or Ibrahim Abou-Nagie) and Turks (like the Kaplan family). His group lost a lot of influence in particular to Vogel's very mission-proactive group in recent years, and recent immigrants from the maghreb seem to be more on the problematic side for them.

  7. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Oddly enough Abu-Yusuf has since issued a public statement in which he retracted the above - or rather in which he stated that REN TV took his words entirely out of context and mistranslated them. Which is actually somewhat believable given that Russian agitprop with regard to Germany and refugees recently seems to be focused on stirring things up.

    The guy and his mosque have been under domestic intelligence surveillance for years btw.
    "out of context" hmm

    isnt that the same lame excuse the female mayor of cologne used for her "keeping an arm length distance" advice? "out of context"

  8. #443
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    Worker stabbed to death at Swedish refugee centre

    guess the victim provoked it too

  9. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhuy View Post
    Worker stabbed to death at Swedish refugee centre

    guess the victim provoked it too
    That kid is smart. Now he has free life time room and board in Sweden. And...he didn't use a gun.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  10. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    For heaven's sake,we're going to face increased automation.In the first world we also need a sustainable reproduction model.That can be changed via education,incentives and a change in public morality.All these 3 take at least a generation to have any effect.Meanwhile,instead of wasting money on these settlers,we can invest in technology.We can last a generation or so,until we have a normal distrubution.
    It is unclear if existing automation technology can replace a declining workforce in the short to medium term. Like you said its something that will take a generation or more. In the meantime there will be resistance from those interest groups who are negatively impacted, the employer class that cannot find the workers with the skills it needs (to be fair I will say for many employers it is skills at a low cost), pensioners who see their retirement accounts drop in value and even low skilled workers who feel their livelihoods threatened by automation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    If anyone believes that different people are going to keep the Western civilization alive there are 2 basic problems.One is the lack of any natural desire of every living thing to survive and perpetuate.Two is the absence of any knowledge of history.
    Creating the conditions for an insurgency is not something our children will cherish us for.
    History has so many examples of migrants moving into a new territory. Sometimes it leads to conflict and genocide of the migrants or the original inhabitants, but at other times there are various degrees of co-existence, where the new comers are assimilated over time. There are examples of multi ethnic societies that have even prospered.

    That said, I do think the current migration rates into Europe is totally unsustainable economically and especially politically.

  11. #446
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    I think the main problem is that International refugee conventions from the 1950's are inadequate when faced large numbers of people 'shopping' for asylum in wealthy countries like Germany and Sweden, along with economic migrants from relatively peaceful countries applying for asylum. Denmark has recently proposed that refugees who leave camps in countries like Turkey and Jordan should no longer be eligible to be considered for asylum. It is unlikely that will pass in the UN and it is unfair to countries like Turkey who have to bear the entire burden and to the to the refugees themselves who are expected to languish in refugee camps for years or maybe even decades.

    A reasonable compromise would that in return for the neighboring countries to house the bulk of the refugees, Europe and the rest of the world should commit to either to paying for the costs of housing a certain number of refugees or pledging to grant a certain number of refugees asylum per year (in the thousands rather than millions). And additionally efforts should be made bring the war in Syria to an end to allow for the possibility of some refugees to return.

  12. #447
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    You could have ended the Syrian war a long time ago.Most of these guys aren't Syrian.

    Besides,this is a warning.There will always be problems.Always new wars and ethnic cleansings in Africa.New forms of islamism will show up after ISIS.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    You could have ended the Syrian war a long time ago.Most of these guys aren't Syrian.

    Besides,this is a warning.There will always be problems.Always new wars and ethnic cleansings in Africa.New forms of islamism will show up after ISIS.
    Ok, young man, you usually have good observations but this one, you're over reaching. You're basically saying when young fucks have no leaders, they will create their own.

    No shit, Sherlock!
    Chimo

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    You could have ended the Syrian war a long time ago.Most of these guys aren't Syrian.

    Besides,this is a warning.There will always be problems.Always new wars and ethnic cleansings in Africa.New forms of islamism will show up after ISIS.
    Eventually Europe will have to follow a system like Australia, to build camps for refugees and migrants outside EU territory, or perhaps on Turkey's land border with Europe (this will reduce the incentive for refugees to undertake perilous sea journeys). While a small number of genuine refugees should be granted asylum in priority, the rest should be given a choice of returning back or the possibility of staying in camps for years while claims are processed. Relatively well off economic migrants would never agree to staying in camps, even refugees with some means would choose to go to non first world countries if they had that option over living in camps.

    This would definitely allow one to differentiate between the migrants and actual refugees.
    Last edited by InExile; 27 Jan 16, at 08:34.

  15. #450
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    It is unclear if existing automation technology can replace a declining workforce in the short to medium term. Like you said its something that will take a generation or more. In the meantime there will be resistance from those interest groups who are negatively impacted, the employer class that cannot find the workers with the skills it needs (to be fair I will say for many employers it is skills at a low cost), pensioners who see their retirement accounts drop in value and even low skilled workers who feel their livelihoods threatened by automation.



    History has so many examples of migrants moving into a new territory. Sometimes it leads to conflict and genocide of the migrants or the original inhabitants, but at other times there are various degrees of co-existence, where the new comers are assimilated over time. There are examples of multi ethnic societies that have even prospered.

    That said, I do think the current migration rates into Europe is totally unsustainable economically and especially politically.
    The genocidal way is more often used.Multiethnic societies is a notion that is overused,imo.All societies,all the times,were multicultural and multiethnic.If you have only one individual and one cultural trait imported from outside,you are already multiethnic. The problem is with proportion.You go over a certain level of B's inserted into A's,you get two different tribes vying for the same resources and land.
    In Europe the situation is already fvcked up.In the comning decades we're facing a dual insurgency.One started by the threatened people of the West.Another started by the settlers.You have class warfare,cultural problems,different ethnicities making up a very explosive recipe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Ok, young man, you usually have good observations but this one, you're over reaching. You're basically saying when young fucks have no leaders, they will create their own.

    No shit, Sherlock!

    Point taken,Sir. Though was thinking at the demographic trend in Africa.That is the real challenge,imo.They're getting another billion people in a few decades.Basically useless mouths,but folk that know the ''Tower of Pisa was built by African slaves''.For that,we owe them.And Rwandas are dime a dozen.

    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    Eventually Europe will have to follow a system like Australia, to build camps for refugees and migrants outside EU territory, or perhaps on Turkey's land border with Europe (this will reduce the incentive for refugees to undertake perilous sea journeys). While a small number of genuine refugees should be granted asylum in priority, the rest should be given a choice of returning back or the possibility of staying in camps for years while claims are processed. Relatively well off economic migrants would never agree to staying in camps, even refugees with some means would choose to go to non first world countries if they had that option over living in camps.

    This would definitely allow one to differentiate between the migrants and actual refugees.
    Agreed completely.But Australiaa's concept hasto be improved.Given the amount of people that are on the move and that will soon get on the move,we're talking managing camps the size of countries,without solving the root problem.Solving the problem means our money,soldiers and administrators.
    Basically,Europe might be forced into rebuilding the colonial empires.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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