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  • #76
    Iran deal at risk: Key senators demand secret annexes

    Without seeing the entire agreement, including those with the IAEA and others upon which the JCPoA rests, it is impossible for Congress to proceed

    What is this all about? Are these adults for real or just plain comedy? If this is true, how does it make sense that they WH would give congress a deducted version of the agreement and then hide the very parts that are at the centre of the dispute?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by astralis View Post
      in any case we don't need Iran to be a total friend of the West, we just need Iran to not start a war or play nuclear footsie in the ME. even if Iran were to double her GDP overnight, it's not as if Tehran would have the ability to drive to Riyadh.
      The point is that the Persain Empire will never be our friend, just like the Russian and Chinese Empires.

      In case everyone missed this, Iran violated the NPT via AQ Khan. She has already broken her word. She stopped her nuclear weapons development in 2003 because she can go no further but her Ballistic Missile programs skyrocketted including her research into air and impact fuses, applicable only to mass warheads. It's a dual use technology applicable to both air burst FAEs ... and nukes.

      Those who argued that Iran stopped going for the nuke are ignoring the forest from the trees. She got the CHANGAI-I blueprints. She can do no better without a test.

      The best she can do with those tech are BMs and that has been going non-stop, including fuse developments.

      Also, in case anyone missed this. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR QOM! ZERO! We have enough medical isotopes for 50 years. Canada shut down our medical reactor because the market is flooded and the prices ain't worth keeping the reactor around.
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 23 Jul 15,, 02:11.
      Chimo

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      • #78
        So is it a bad deal or a good deal in your view? For myself I would not trust someone claiming inspiration from a Divine source as a basis for policy with a spoon let alone a fork; clearly bonkers or lying.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by snapper View Post
          So is it a bad deal or a good deal in your view? For myself I would not trust someone claiming inspiration from a Divine source as a basis for policy with a spoon let alone a fork; clearly bonkers or lying.
          It's a freaking bad deal. 15 years before the Iranians are obligated to seriously dismantle their nuclear weapons capabilities.
          Chimo

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          • #80
            i think it's important to note that the alternative to the nuclear deal was not "status quo and sanctions continue," but "collapse of the sanctions regime" as china/russia decides to wholly instead of partially ignore the sanctions.

            then the US would have to decide whether to shift to containment or to outright war.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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            • #81
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              i think it's important to note that the alternative to the nuclear deal was not "status quo and sanctions continue," but "collapse of the sanctions regime" as china/russia decides to wholly instead of partially ignore the sanctions.

              then the US would have to decide whether to shift to containment or to outright war.
              And all of this points straight to back at Obama. This entire deal delays the decision point 15 years down the line when the Iranians will be more than ready for a break out.
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Aug 15,, 16:45.
              Chimo

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              • #82
                I do not always agree with the Colonel but +1 to the above. Obama on foreign policy has been a total failure - Hilary was a disaster on heels as Secretary of State (who now recalls the 'restart button' - which they managed to mis-spell even when presenting it Lavrov)and Kerry, though he impressed me at first, has become another appeasement apologist. Wtf did he visit Putin in Sochi a while ago for? The US supplies arms to Iraq and is surprised when they turn up in Yemmen in the hands of the Iranian payed shites? Let the world to go chaos if you wish but it it will come back to your shores if you do. No clear understanding or strategy has been drawn up on any foreign policy issue other than Libya perhaps, which again like Iraq lacked the forward planning and vision of what anyone wanted to see happen in the long term. Both were 'pyrrhic victories' and soldiers lives wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan for this lack of long term thinking basically because it fulfilled Obama's political "to do's". That's b*llocks, if you will forgive will my use of the vernacular compared to the lives of the men who risked and gave their lives for something better and the people in these nations that still suffer. Obama's foreign policy has never been long term but only been conciliation and appeasement. In many cases this has been, in my opinion, a mistake. The S-300s that the Putin regime plans to send to Iran can deliver an active or even a 'dirty bomb' on any of their neighbours including Israel. No wonder they want the airbase in Azerbaijan so much - they think for the future and not for personal political capital as Obama has been happy to do. Sell your 'deal' all you like - same as Minsk 1 and 2 to me. If you cannot trust the bugger who signs the piece of paper then the piece of paper is worthless from the start. The Iranian Ayatollahs I do not trust.
                Last edited by snapper; 02 Aug 15,, 07:46.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post

                  in any case we don't need Iran to be a total friend of the West, we just need Iran to not start a war or play nuclear footsie in the ME. even if Iran were to double her GDP overnight, it's not as if Tehran would have the ability to drive to Riyadh.
                  Actually they the capability right now.The Saudis are a bunch of wussies.They don't dare,yet.

                  I agree with you though that Iran need not be a total friend of the West.But,we need them to keep the Sunnis in check,the Russians need them to keep the sunnis of Central Asia in check and they might also keep Turkey in check,a task they did rather well for hundreds of years.They are better dealing with us as well,instead of making deals only with the Chinese,so overall it may turn ok.The Israeli troubles are their own.Not Western troubles.
                  Those who know don't speak
                  He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                  • #84
                    I, for one, have not forgotten the American Hostage Crisis.
                    Chimo

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                    • #85
                      This was a terrible deal, no doubt. Getting a reasonable deal required a tough administration that would be prepared in actuality to go to war in case negotiations failed. This administration was dreaming of legacies and renown and not really prepared to let their dreams be dashed let alone do the much harder thing that could come after. The other side, including the Russians and the Chinese, saw right through them and took advantage.

                      That you could have a deal where you have Iranians dancing in the streets, conventional arms embargo disassembled as a final topping on the cake put on in the very last week of negotiations, and our side not daring to even broach the issue of American hostages, tells us all that we need to know. Obama, Kerry and co were patsies. Heck, they went in with patsy painted on their faces, splashed all over their shirts, and carrying balloons saying patsy me pretty please.

                      The question is, now what? We elected the guy. We re-elected him a second time. He's gone and f*cked everything up, now what?

                      Those 600 PAC3s to Saudi Arabia are just a start. From now on it will be a race to put in place the new Star Wars and our allies will also be looking to boost their offensive strike capabilities, dramatically.

                      And Kerry, what a disaster. Thank god on that particular election we made the right choice.
                      Last edited by citanon; 03 Aug 15,, 00:55.

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                      • #86
                        My FREAKING GOD! THIS IS THE FREAKING DEAL. Iran will NOT have nuclear weapons for 10 to 15 years. Iran is NOT giving up her nukes. She is just delaying her program. What a load of horse puckey!!!!
                        Chimo

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          My FREAKING GOD! THIS IS THE FREAKING DEAL. Iran will NOT have nuclear weapons for 10 to 15 years. Iran is NOT giving up her nukes. She is just delaying her program. What a load of horse puckey!!!!
                          She's getting more than that. Besides a safe path to a nuke given a 10 to 15 year wait, she also has conventional arms embargo (including ballistic missiles technology) lifted in just 5 to 8 years, plus there is the tons of tons of money from lifting of economic sanctions.

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                          • #88
                            Good God.Gentlemen,you are 100 percent correct.But it's irrelevant.Because you don't need that deal,just as you don't need to own the mess.Yes,you gave up the empire in the ME and let's not beat the bush around both the term ''empire'' and the meaning of ''giving up''.That let's the ME up for grabs.You have Egypt,Israel,Turkey,the Saudis, the Caliphate and the Iranians competing. As long as they're competing,there is no great power rising there to become allied with either China/Russia or turn into a danger in itself.Yes,there will be one,it will be islamic and it will be dangerous.But in another generation,while we have time to reform our countries and be prepared for a storm that was coming anyway.

                            So the West got a reasonable exit deal in a shitty situation.Not because Obama has merits,but because people there are busy fighting their war.
                            That on individual points he fvcked up,what can anyone expects from that incompetent fool?
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                            • #89
                              An Ayatollah ran Middle East with nukes. Thanks but no thanks.

                              I want to make this clear. Iran is NOT obligated to destroy anything for 15 years. Not one single centrefuge. Not erase one single byte of data. Nothing. Iran gets to keep what she has for 15 years. She is obligated to allow IAEA to monitor all her HEU output which even then, she can delay up to 6 freaking months (more like 2 years given the way she can gumbled up the bureaucracy). The IAEA must rely on external intelligence gathering to keep Iran on her toes, meaning we're not stopping our jobs of watching Iran like a hawk.

                              After which, Iran still gets to retain all her rights under the NPT, including leaving it. Hell, there is NOTHING in this agreement that is stopping Iran from withdrawing from it and the NPT anytime she wants.

                              Anyone still thinks this is a fucking good idea?
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 03 Aug 15,, 13:15.
                              Chimo

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                              • #90
                                Deals can be changed.
                                Those who know don't speak
                                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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