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Indian government furious at BBC over broadcast of gang-rape documentary

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  • #16
    Everyone needs to calm down and think about the situation for a moment

    This happened in dimapur yesterday



    Mob breaks into Indian prison, drags out rapist and beats him to death | Daily Mail Online

    This is what happens when you prop the public into thinking that the judiciary doesn't work. No one wants a mob rule.
    Last edited by anil; 06 Mar 15,, 07:43.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by anil View Post
      Was there a need for any of this(to make a docu and for the govt to block it?)?
      Was there a need for the documentary? Hell yes. People kid themselves that rape, especially one as brutal as this, is the province of a special class of people called 'criminals' who have nothing to do with good, decent people. The problem, therefore, is simply one of law & order. This is a reminder that rape originates with a set of attitudes that ordinary 'decent' people hold and propagate: women should not dress in a particular way; women should not have the sexual freedom men assume as a birthright; women should not have the freedom of movement & association men assume as a birthright. In other words, rape is the violent end of a spectrum of attitudes that treats women as lesser beings whose lives & bodies are men's to control.

      A documentary like this is a reminder that rape doesn't happen in a vacuum. it is also a reminder, thanks to the statements of the lawyers, that these attitudes are not just those of the poor & undereducated or some 'criminal class', but are considered respectable by a much broader cross section of people. Sometimes seeing another person say things like this, especially people who are 'bad', can help people see just how terrible these ideas truly are. it is part of a process of changing minds.

      As for the GOI, they appear to be playing to that part of their constituency who are more upset by the perceived slight to the nation this documentary represents than they are by the attitudes being expressed. There are a lot of ways to describe this sort of attitude, I'll just go with 'disgusting beyond words'.
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
        playing to that part of their constituency
        The constituency you refer to is not alien to incidents of rape and murder. The problem is with their idea of justice.

        In india, the delhi rape issue is not viewed as an image issue(to the world). Indians generally don't follow world events. It's very hard to run a foreign news channel(cnn bbc jazzera etc) in india because viewership is very minimal with zero commercial ads. Most indians would be very confused to see foreigners showing interest in indias domestic politics.

        Rather, the delhi rape issue is viewed by indians as a domestic movement to secure indian womens rights in society. The problem is that the govt cannot openly accept that it cannot fix the judicial system with a clap of the hand because the mob will not understand such an answer. Hence the govt walks pragmatically with each step.
        Last edited by anil; 06 Mar 15,, 08:50.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by anil View Post
          Rather, the delhi rape issue is viewed by indians as a domestic movement to secure indian womens rights in society. The problem is that the govt cannot openly accept that it cannot fix the judicial system with a clap of the hand because the mob will not understand such an answer. Hence the govt walks pragmatically with each step.
          What? Why Not? Isn't that what governments do?
          Chimo

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            as to death penalty being the right punsihement ? lol, maybe you should watch the documentary, the guy says if there is death penalty then the rape victim dies. This btw is a point made numerous times for why not to have a death penalty. So isn't news to me.
            You are joking me. Let the criminal decide how to commit his crime?
            Chimo

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cactus
              It was a new point me when I heard a feminist anti-death-penalty lawyer say it two years ago. I couldn't argue with her tactical logic then, and I can't argue with it now.
              I can. The law doesn't protect. It never does. The law punishes. It is that fear of punishment that protects.

              If there is no fear of punishment, then it doesn't matter. The criminal will do as he please.

              In this particular case, tell me that living the rest of his life in a 10x10 cell being someone else's bitch doesn't warrant trying to kill his victim.
              Chimo

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              • #22
                One of the guys took steroids, roid rage strikes again.
                One out of the entire group willingly took substance - not a mitigating factor for him or his friends.

                I personally think that lifelong imprisonment is the way to go. If we impose death penalty it ensures that rapists will kill their victims instead.
                Hanging out in prison for the next three to four decades would provide the same motivation to kill the victim.

                lol, maybe you should watch the documentary, the guy says if there is death penalty then the rape victim dies. This btw is a point made numerous times for why not to have a death penalty. So
                So if he gets 20 years would he kill the victim of gang rape? What about 5? A few months giving up weekends?

                To hang a murderer is to create another - Dok
                Murder is a legal term - a state sanctioned execution, with all the checks and balances of an independent judiciary, is not a murder.

                I was waiting for someone to post this thread and no surprise that it was Troung.
                You know you love me.

                =========
                This is what happens when you prop the public into thinking that the judiciary doesn't work. No one wants a mob rule.
                A failure of the police all around it appears...

                http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...th-street.html

                A mass protest rally against the rape was held at Dimapur this morning after which students and angry people forced into the district jail and managed to pull out the accused,' the Press Trust of India news agency said.

                It has been reported the crowd tore down two gates before dragging him to the town's clock tower.

                It's said they also set fire to homes and shops in an area where the suspect ran his business.

                Several people were injured when police used batons and opened fire, while officers were hurt when the mob pelted them with stones in Nagaland state in northeast India. The police later removed the man's body.
                Last edited by troung; 06 Mar 15,, 14:05.
                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cactus
                  However I will say one thing from the long-view: Once in a while, maybe once in many million, a rape provokes such public outrage that if the government shirks from using its monopoly on violence - it will be consumed and destroyed by that very option. This was true from the fall of the Tarquinians to the rise of the Taliban.
                  yep, hence the invention of the term 'rarest of the rare'. its a safety valve to prevent just that. Cause the mob won't control its anger. To defuse the situation the high court awarded the death penalty. Now how will the supreme court handle the defendants appeal ? it will take its time and wait for the anger to dissipate. However the juvenile will be out in three years. Will have to see how that is handled.

                  So in the interests of public order they have it. Which frankly has nothing to do with deterring more rape or murder but in preserving law & order. law and order is a trope used to curb or restrict a lot of things. an improvisation.

                  The state still retains control over the liberty of the perp. In the case of serial rapists the terms get longer and they don't get out until it can be shown they have reformed.

                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  You are joking me. Let the criminal decide how to commit his crime?
                  Reduce the incentive to commit murder. Introduce the death penalty and you persuade them into murder. OK, we have the death penalty now, we can stop worrying about rape (!) just smacks of a quick fix. Target the mindset behind the act.

                  Both people were alive after this incident, the boyfriend as well. 17 days it took to apprehend the perps. Rather unusual when it comes to rape in India in terms of speed that the system worked. The question then is have they got the right people. testimony helps. Increases the chance of getting the right people. The bigger challenge is to catch the people, as to deterring them this documentary is a step in the right direction. The tragedy is the people that should watch it won't get the chance

                  Originally posted by troung View Post
                  Murder is a legal term - a state sanctioned execution, with all the checks and balances of an independent judiciary, is not a murder.
                  kill some one you get killed. you murder someone the state kills you.

                  its mob sanctioned revenge and crowd control. goes back a very long time.

                  The term justice is what we're looking for. improving it. i think the bar for legally killing people ought to be higher.

                  Though India has the death penalty it chooses to use it sparingly.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Mar 15,, 16:20.

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                  • #24
                    The Government didn't ban the movie because it didn't like it , but rather the film maker was supposed to send the unedited footage to the authorities first. That was not followed and hence it was banned.Scums like that rapist should be hanged at the earliest and I don't understand why they should be given the luxury of appealing when clearly whatever they did was inhumane. Just one issue with the documentary is that the filmmaker never interviewed anyone else apart from these fuckers and made it look like ALL men in India treat women like that rapist and his lawyers do. It isn't the case.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by anil View Post
                      Was there a need for any of this(to make a docu and for the govt to block it?)?
                      The first part is akin to what the perps said, why so much fuss rape happens all the time. because that question is being asked is the reason for this documentary to be made.

                      I don't know the full reason yet for the state to block it. Releasing the name & identity of the victim was prohibited. Does it matter now after she has passed away. Whatever legal challenge the state can mount here is on weak ground, i think leslie has done her homework, so its to create a diversion.

                      What a lame cat fight between times group and ndtv. ndtv secures the rights, times calls it sensationalist voyeurism

                      Had times got the rights they would be singing a different tune. good ndtv got it. this is delhi and they just had to. Do you get the impression that the media fight has hotted up a bit since the last year ? they more openly slam and mock each other now is what i noticed.

                      Times like this i stick to govt channels as the temperature is lower.

                      Originally posted by anil View Post
                      Everyone needs to calm down and think about the situation for a moment

                      This happened in dimapur yesterday

                      This is what happens when you prop the public into thinking that the judiciary doesn't work. No one wants a mob rule.
                      This is what happens when the state can't defend its writ. What good is a prison if it cant prevent prisoners from breaking out ?

                      I do appreciate your larger point though, the protests in Delhi were unprecedented at the time and the placards i saw people holding were ridiculous at times. There were instances when the mobs got violent, recall Sheila trying to speak to them and they almost wanted to attack her. That's when the lathi charges began. The way it was explained at the time was we are inexperienced with crowd control and over reacted.

                      That demonstration and protest (peaceful ones) is what catalysed the producer to make this documentary. She saw hope in the future of the country.

                      Originally posted by commander View Post
                      The Government didn't ban the movie because it didn't like it , but rather the film maker was supposed to send the unedited footage to the authorities first. That was not followed and hence it was banned.
                      Watch the clip i posted. All questions answered and this is looking like another PR failure with the interior minster this time.

                      Just one issue with the documentary is that the filmmaker never interviewed anyone else apart from these fuckers and made it look like ALL men in India treat women like that rapist and his lawyers do. It isn't the case.
                      please watch the doc, they interviewed the lawyers, though its being said now at the time the case has not been concluded. Still is it acceptable for officers of the court to make the statements they did ? one of them was even adamant about it.

                      Not all men but a good number of them. its a mindset that is quite deep and its that mindset that causes incidents like this amongst others. Its quite broad and to do with attitudes about women in sections of our society.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Mar 15,, 16:38.

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                      • #26
                        DE, things do not end with one incident of rape. Tomorrow is another day. You need to wonder how you want that day to be. The result of a highly publicized case like this will set a precedent. The people want blood and the last thing you want to do it give them that. It's the govts job not to bow to this mob.

                        Mukherjee will send these perpetrators to the noose in time but it cannot be in the backdrop of mob fury.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          What? Why Not? Isn't that what governments do?
                          It's a mountain of a task and no indian coalition wants to bite it

                          Tronic back in 2012

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Reduce the incentive to commit murder. Introduce the death penalty and you persuade them into murder.
                            That's complete horse puckey. The fucks didn't expect to be caught. Let alone being put into jail. The thought of punishment never entered their minds when they were committing the crime.

                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            OK, we have the death penalty now, we can stop worrying about rape (!) just smacks of a quick fix. Target the mindset behind the act.
                            I really don't care if you have the death penalty or not. Punish the damned fucks. 10 years in a 10x10 cell being someone else's bitch is perfectly fine with me. But to argue the death penalty will push further crimes is just pure nonsense. Criminals don't expect to be caught.
                            Chimo

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                            • #29
                              Saw the documentary last night. Hard to understand the logic behind GoI's actions. Honestly I didn't get the impression that all Indian men are rapists or the convicted was getting a platform to spew his filth. In-fact, it showed the protests, the parents and the friend's viewpoints in equal measure in contrast with the rapist and his lawyers. It also did an excellent job of humanising the rapist, it's far too easy to classify a person like him to be an outlier, a fringe element, a monster, not us. We as a society need to understand that the mindset spouting this sort of thinking is not limited to a specific type of individual, it could be anyone anywhere.

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                              • #30
                                Following is the full statement by the Editors Guild of India:
                                The Government of India's move in banning the telecast of the BBC documentary 'India's Daughter' depicting the aftermath of the brutal gang rape and murder of Nirbhaya is wholly unwarranted, based as it is on a misunderstanding of the power and the message behind it. The documentary portrays the courage, sensitivity and liberal outlook of a family traumatised by the brutality inflicted on the daughter, the continuing shameful attitudes towards women among the convict as well as the educated including lawyers and multiple voices in support of women's freedom and dignity including students, former Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, Justice Leila Seth, Oxford academic Maria Misra and senior advocate and former Solicitor General Gopal Subramaniam. While the Supreme Court has declared that there should be the broadest freedom to express even the most unacceptable of views, the message that emerges from the documentary is wholly positive and its power is such as to make people re-examine their own attitudes and the attitudes of people around them.

                                The Nirbhaya incident has been an obvious matter of public interest and has through all the stages of the investigation, trial and confirmation by the high court, been subject to a widespread public debate and discussion, protests and demonstrations and enquiry by the Justice Verma Commission that suggested reform of the law. To raise the issue of sub judice now at the stage of final appeal in the Supreme Court and seek to still discussion is absurd. Judges, particularly in the Supreme Court, are by training and temperament immune to the happenings in the public sphere outside the court, and it is an insult to the Supreme Court to suggest that the airing of the convict's perverted views would tend to interfere with the course of justice.

                                Prompted by initial expressions of outrage, including by members of Parliament, over the views of the convict included in the documentary, the Government seems to have decided on the ban without viewing the documentary in its entirety. The rationale that the ban was in the interests of justice and public order as the film "created a situation of tension and fear amongst women" and as that the convict would use the media to further his case in the appeal that was sub-judice seems to be an afterthought.

                                The Editors Guild of India appeals to the Government of India to revoke the ban forthwith and enable the people to view what is a positive and powerful documentary touching on the freedom, dignity and safety of women.

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