The 2016 US General Election

[astralis]

TH,

Seriously, one night of semi-good behavior and suddenly Trump's entire campaign history vanishes?

No. Just, no.

not really semi-good behavior. he lied consistently about HIS OWN stances on birtherism, his support for the Iraq War, etc, and then attempted to shout down the moderator when called out upon it.

there was some discussion on ISIS, where Trump dropped the gem that HRC has been fighting ISIS her entire adult life. and starting after about 15 minutes in, he was in defense mode because HRC was constantly jabbing at the gaping holes in his plans, or absolute lackthereof when it came to ISIS.

and on every discussion there was on foreign policy, he devolved into word salad. for instance, not having any idea what "no first use" means when it comes to nukes.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...gn_policy.html

[GVChamp]

Watch pretty much every stump speech he's ever given.

This man is on the record many times saying all the things you listed above.

Seriously, one night of semi-good behavior and suddenly Trump's entire campaign history vanishes?

No. Just, no.

If I'm an undecided voter watching the debates, presumably I do not want to spend the next X hours of my life watching stump speeches, or presumably I think your accusations of racism are standard politicking and possibly without water.

Trump dropped the gem that HRC has been fighting ISIS her entire adult life

I liked this line. You aren't really supposed to take a line like that seriously.

How long is the shelf life on presidential debates' effect on polling?

There's been a lot of talk on 538 regarding exactly this, and a lot of the answer is "uhhh....unclear."

[Julie]

What did she win? She was smiling and smug when Trump was describing the horror going on in African communities. I really do not think that issue is funny or anything to laugh about. Heard no questions or discussion about real issues and solutions going on with this country. I was disappointed in the entire debate. I also think Hillary was wearing a wire as it seems to be breaking news.

[astralis]

GVChamp,

I liked this line. You aren't really supposed to take a line like that seriously.

sure doesn't look like he was joking. audience laughed their arse off at this, HRC was laughing, only person not laughing was an irate Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om58qEBol2k

[astralis]

Julie,

She was smiling and smug when Trump was describing the horror going on in African communities.

smiling and smug? want to show me? here's the segment, and it's split screen for the candidate's faces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsFWNxJOUpw

not too hard, i'll be waiting for you to point it out.

moreover, his response to Lester Holt's question of how to improve race relations was to say "law and order", "stop and frisk". yeah...that shows real understanding of the African-American community, lol.

Heard no questions or discussion about real issues and solutions going on with this country.

here you go. you can disagree with the respective candidates, but they DID talk policy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ipt-annotated/

Clinton:

CLINTON: Well, thank you, Lester, and thanks to Hofstra for hosting us.

The central question in this election is really what kind of country we want to be and what kind of future we'll build together. Today is my granddaughter's second birthday, so I think about this a lot. First, we have to build an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top. That means we need new jobs, good jobs, with rising incomes.

I want us to invest in you. I want us to invest in your future. That means jobs in infrastructure, in advanced manufacturing, innovation and technology, clean, renewable energy, and small business, because most of the new jobs will come from small business. We also have to make the economy fairer. That starts with raising the national minimum wage and also guarantee, finally, equal pay for women's work.

CLINTON: I also want to see more companies do profit-sharing. If you help create the profits, you should be able to share in them, not just the executives at the top.

And I want us to do more to support people who are struggling to balance family and work. I've heard from so many of you about the difficult choices you face and the stresses that you're under. So let's have paid family leave, earned sick days. Let's be sure we have affordable child care and debt-free college.

How are we going to do it? We're going to do it by having the wealthy pay their fair share and close the corporate loopholes...

Independent experts have looked at what I've proposed and looked at what Donald's proposed, and basically they've said this, that if his tax plan, which would blow up the debt by over $5 trillion and would in some instances disadvantage middle-class families compared to the wealthy, were to go into effect, we would lose 3.5 million jobs and maybe have another recession.

They've looked at my plans and they've said, OK, if we can do this, and I intend to get it done, we will have 10 million more new jobs, because we will be making investments where we can grow the economy. Take clean energy. Some country is going to be the clean- energy superpower of the 21st century. Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. I think it's real.

Trump:

TRUMP: Thank you, Lester. Our jobs are fleeing the country. They're going to Mexico. They're going to many other countries. You look at what China is doing to our country in terms of making our product. They're devaluing their currency, and there's nobody in our government to fight them. And we have a very good fight. And we have a winning fight. Because they're using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China, and many other countries are doing the same thing.

So we're losing our good jobs, so many of them. When you look at what's happening in Mexico, a friend of mine who builds plants said it's the eighth wonder of the world. They're building some of the biggest plants anywhere in the world, some of the most sophisticated, some of the best plants. With the United States, as he said, not so much.

So Ford is leaving. You see that, their small car division leaving. Thousands of jobs leaving Michigan, leaving Ohio. They're all leaving. And we can't allow it to happen anymore. As far as child care is concerned and so many other things, I think Hillary and I agree on that. We probably disagree a little bit as to numbers and amounts and what we're going to do, but perhaps we'll be talking about that later.

But we have to stop our jobs from being stolen from us. We have to stop our companies from leaving the United States and, with it, firing all of their people. All you have to do is take a look at Carrier air conditioning in Indianapolis. They left -- fired 1,400 people. They're going to Mexico. So many hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this.

TRUMP: We cannot let it happen. Under my plan, I'll be reducing taxes tremendously, from 35 percent to 15 percent for companies, small and big businesses. That's going to be a job creator like we haven't seen since Ronald Reagan. It's going to be a beautiful thing to watch.

Companies will come. They will build. They will expand. New companies will start. And I look very, very much forward to doing it. We have to renegotiate our trade deals, and we have to stop these countries from stealing our companies and our jobs....

TRUMP: Well, the first thing you do is don't let the jobs leave. The companies are leaving. I could name, I mean, there are thousands of them. They're leaving, and they're leaving in bigger numbers than ever.

And what you do is you say, fine, you want to go to Mexico or some other country, good luck. We wish you a lot of luck. But if you think you're going to make your air conditioners or your cars or your cookies or whatever you make and bring them into our country without a tax, you're wrong.

And once you say you're going to have to tax them coming in, and our politicians never do this, because they have special interests and the special interests want those companies to leave, because in many cases, they own the companies. So what I'm saying is, we can stop them from leaving. We have to stop them from leaving. And that's a big, big factor.

[zraver]

2). If there is a large turn out you're banking on the "Trump is so awful I have to prevent a nuclear war" crowd to come out and cast a blocking vote. Well, you've got a Flower front row in the 1st debate to remind the Bernie or Bust Crowd feminists to Stay at home, and to remind college educated female of the choice. Seems to me it'll be a tough gig to get the people out to vote.

Based on rally turnout, Trump has the momentum. People may pick him or her in polls, but polls are easy, they come to you. Acvtually getting out and voting when you are not enthusiastic about your candidate is a lot harder. Trump hate may motivate some, but this is offset by Hillary hate. Trump's supporters are jazzed and ready to vote.

[bfng3569]

GVChamp,



sure doesn't look like he was joking. audience laughed their arse off at this, HRC was laughing, only person not laughing was an irate Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om58qEBol2k

So you think Trump actually believes she has been fighting Isis since she was a day old? A year old?

Ummm, ok.

[Stitch]

TH,

not really semi-good behavior. he lied consistently about HIS OWN stances on birtherism, his support for the Iraq War, etc, and then attempted to shout down the moderator when called out upon it.

The problem is, the dyed-in-the-wool Trump fanbois couldn't care less whether he contradicts himself or not, it's all about the style, the substance isn't really necessary; pointing out his obvious backpedaling isn't going to convince anyone NOT to vote for him.

[Julie]

What about her record of "accomplishments?" I mean she promised 200,000 jobs when she was campaigning for Senator in New York and that never materialized. Actually I think the manufacturing sector jobs plunged 25% the first term she was in office. She has one bill passed for naming a Federal Building....fluff stuff. Hillary has always failed at making things happen. To me, she has always, and still is, just a lot of talk. Also, how do you manage to be worth $200 million dollars and have only been a public servant for 30 years?

[astralis]

julie,

i'm curious, if she's "just a lot of talk", why exactly did you support her in 2008? ;-)

[astralis]

bfng,

So you think Trump actually bele8crs she has been fighting Isis since she was a day old? A year old?

Ummm, ok.

i'm pretty sure Trump has no clue when ISIS was founded.

see this interview, where Trump repeatedly refused to change his words even after a sympathetic interviewer (Hugh Hewitt) desperately tried to walk off him off the ledge he was on.

HH: I’ve got two more questions. Last night, you said the President was the founder of ISIS. I know what you meant. You meant that he created the vacuum, he lost the peace.

DT: No, I meant he’s the founder of ISIS. I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton.

HH: But he’s not sympathetic to them. He hates them. He’s trying to kill them.

DT: I don’t care. He was the founder. His, the way he got out of Iraq was that that was the founding of ISIS, okay?

HH: Well, that, you know, I have a saying, Donald Trump, the mnemonic device I use is Every Liberal Really Seems So, So Sad. E is for Egypt, L is for Libya, S is for Syria, R is for Russia reset. They screwed everything up. You don’t get any argument from me. But by using the term founder, they’re hitting with you on this again. Mistake?

DT: No, it’s no mistake. Everyone’s liking it. I think they’re liking it. I give him the most valuable player award. And I give it to him, and I give it to, I gave the co-founder to Hillary. I don’t know if you heard that.

[astralis]

z,

Based on rally turnout, Trump has the momentum. People may pick him or her in polls, but polls are easy, they come to you. Acvtually getting out and voting when you are not enthusiastic about your candidate is a lot harder. Trump hate may motivate some, but this is offset by Hillary hate. Trump's supporters are jazzed and ready to vote.

lol, if rally turnout was a true indicator of the success of a candidate, why bother commissioning polls?

i'm quite willing to engage in another butter cookie bet.

[Gun Grape]

i'm quite willing to engage in another butter cookie bet.

If you keep this up, you will either gain 100lbs by Christmas,

Or everyone on your shopping list will get butter cookies this year

[bonehead]

is it this hard to understand that the US electoral system of first-past-the-post, the electoral college system, and gerrymandering makes it all but impossible for a viable third party?

how many people voted for Ross Perot, and how many electoral votes did Perot win?

There is no denying that those in power put things in place to keep their position. Nor did I say changing the system wouldnt take some effort. What surprises me is that attitude that 'it is just too difficult to change so I will continue to eat shit and hope for the best" type of attitude that pervades some people. It is not impossible to dump the two major political party's and give a viable third choice. Considering the direction we are headed under either of them isnt the effort to save the country worht it.

Ross didnt get a majority of the vote in any state but he did finish second in a couple. Not bad for someone who actually dropped out of the race for a bit. He didnt get any electorial votes because he didnt have the numbers. What we have seen with Trump and the republican primaries is that when you do have the numbers there is not much the republicans can do about it. The same would go with the democrats in the general election.

[bonehead]

Choices in prior elections have never been anywhere near as bad as people make them seem.

I know you'll disagree, but even Hillary isn't that bad policy-wise (for the median American voter). Hillary is highly intelligent, cunning, knows her policy details (even if she has a left-wing slant on them), is relatively moderate on most issues, and is both cut-throat and willing to make deals at the same time. She, however, is of rather poor character, and is EXTREMELY uncharismatic.

Trump really is as bad as what us peons think of the major party candidates, in practically every respect. Hopefully this is not the direction of the Republic, but it may be.

If so, we can always petition House Windsor to appoint a few Royal Governors.

I am not interested in appointing anything. I just want the voters to get passed the smoke and mirrors and see that there are more choices than democrat or republican. As for me and many I know we have been choosing the lessor of the two evils for quite some time. As for hillary she knows how to get things done in D.C.. She has the money and the leverage and is privy to the insider secrets. I wont argue with you at all about her character, However, in the absence of someone running against her, who would want such a person with her proven character in the White House? In her I see she will get a lot of things done. The problem is that what she will try to do is against the grain for me and I dont see her agenda as moderate at all. Her agenda is rather extreme, this is coming from a moderate and independant. Sadly, her agenda will affect the country for decades after she is gone. Trump, on the otherhand, is a short term disaster. I give him 2 years tops before he either quits or is impeached. Once he is gone the dust will settle and as a country, we can move on with out the long term shackles that Hillary has in mind.