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Thread: The 2016 US General Election

  1. #2821
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    ^ simply compare Trump's current standing among african-americans, hispanics, and asians with Romney or Bush Jr. it was bad to begin with, it's terrible now.
    Given that GOP mantra is linked to smaller government, and those groups consistently favor bigger government by wide margins. It's not the personal image issue that wins those groups it's one of the inherent ideological appeal. I.E they're likely to always loose in those groupe. If that standing was enough to swing an election - the election would have to be bloody close, the personal standings just make those elections quicker & easier for the winners.

    It's why you can spend hundreds of billions on TSA shit and the relatively minor terrorism comparison, but dare not mention the border with a Nation you wouldn't road trip through. It's why you can call Trump a racist regarding the Trump U controversy, but not address the accusation of judicial impropriety. All (R) candidates avoid it like the plague because it looses elections - it's always fertile ground to use the "out of touch racist republican" mantra.

    You can be sure,even bet your house on it that it'll repeat itself in 4 years time.
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    Chunder,

    Given that GOP mantra is linked to smaller government, and those groups consistently favor bigger government by wide margins. It's not the personal image issue that wins those groups it's one of the inherent ideological appeal. I.E they're likely to always loose in those groupe. If that standing was enough to swing an election - the election would have to be bloody close, the personal standings just make those elections quicker & easier for the winners.
    from a purely partisan standpoint, i certainly hope the GOP continues to write-off minorities as inherently unwinnable. this will certainly mean continued Dem dominance of Presidential elections for the foreseeable future.

    from an american standpoint, i think that's horrible, and will open up the GOP to solely catering to white working-class voters. by the way, that's the heart of Trumpism; there's already been a confrontation between the populists and the Chamber of Commerce types and it's pretty clear which side really brings out the votes for the GOP. the latter is just lucky that -this time-, Trump is pretty much following standard GOP tax doctrine despite the words coming out of his mouth.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #2823
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    anyways, back to the idea of Trump normalizing what should not be normalized:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...b62_story.html

    can any of you imagine the GOP reaction if a Dem candidate were to say a TENTH of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth?
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  4. #2824
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Again, Trump can't kill what's not there. The Republicans were never making a serious attempt to court minorities in any respect. All their talk about minority voters was smokescreen to push the open border agenda of party leaders.

    For the record, minority voters around the entire Western world utterly reject all center-right parties. The Republicans have a better chance of convincing the Putin to leave Crimea than they do Mexicans and Blacks to vote Republican.

    Here's an article talking about how the Tory voters had an amazing ethnic voter count, with a 33% result.
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/06...-support-them/

    The goal should not be to turn minority voters into Republicans, but to assimilate the minorities into the majority.

    To the extent that there has ever been a successful result:
    http://www.frumforum.com/how-canadas...mmigrant-vote/
    The Conservative Party went another way. “Instead of engaging on a patronage basis, [Kenney] appealed to the conservative instincts within some of these groups, often dealing with niche issues within different groups,” said Ezra Levant, a Canadian conservative commentator.

    After the Conservative Party’s 2006 federal election victory, the Conservative Party went community by community to identify symbolic issues that were important to them, and then tried to deliver on those issues.

    “They weren’t hearing our message on taxes, on crime, [or] on opportunity because there was so much static. We had to break through the clutter… That’s where we came out with a series of issues for each community… and by focusing on those issues… we were able to get them to tune in,” explained Minister Kenney.

    For example, the Conservatives reached out to Canada’s Polish community by lifting visa requirements to visit Canada; in a nod to former Vietnamese refugees, they condemned the socialist government in Vietnam; the process of visa applications for Croatians was also simplified.
    You will notice that they engaged community-by-community and made attempts to turn votes in specific communities. That's what actual engagement looks like.


    The Conservatives also refused to meet with groups they deemed were radicalized. “They… focused on bolstering moderates within certain communities… under the conservatives, [extremist] groups have been banned, and those who have not been banned have been marginalized,” says Ezra Levant. “For example, the Canadian-Islamic Congress, which had a big delegation at the Liberal Party convention in 2006 and [is led by someone] who went on TV and said any Israeli over 18 is a legitimate target for a terrorist attack – the federal government will not meet with them.”
    You'll notice that they still acted in ways that modern American liberals would decry as racist. But the Polish community isn't the Mexican community, so why the fuck would Polish-Americans care if Trump bad mouths Mexicans, as long as Trump is strong on Polish issues?


    Of course this is besides the point, because the Conservatives got destroyed by Trudeau. So we'll see if this strategy has any lasting legs. It's also not analogous to America, because Canada has a different, less fucking stupid immigration system than "let's just let everyone come over the border and amnesty them." Conservatives would likely be a lot more comfortable with immigrants if we had Canada's immigration system and no shared border with a third-world cluster-fuck.


    As for Putin being a better leader than Obama, any idiot can see Putin is a better leader than Obama. It's not even a fair competition: Putin is a leader. Obama doesn't lead anything. It's apples and oranges.
    I don't know how much worse Trump can criticize Putin than calling him "evil."

    Here's the important part:
    But while Democrats see an opportunity, they are also hamstrung by their past and their present. When Romney labeled Russia the nation’s No. 1 enemy, Obama and his reelection campaign mocked him as reliving the Cold War.

    Again, even thinking Trump is an absolute idiot, which I do, at least Trump actually sees some danger there. Democrats were off living in la-la land, and the last 4 years are a painful reminder that history isn't over.

    But, hey, at least Obama has a climate change treaty, ROFLMAO. Secretary Kerry and President Obama, leading the war on air conditioners!


    EDIT:
    I cracked open the paper today to see developers cracked ground on a new skyscraper in Chicago. One article talked about how amazing it is that the US is finally getting over its phobia of skyscrapers after 9/11.
    The other had a title of how it was the largest building designed by a woman.
    *roll eyes* Identity politics. I'd rather have a nation led by a Trump than a nation where every stupid little scenario is viewed through a social justice lens. This is the greatest shit by a woman, ever! This is the greatest oil pipeline designed by a woman! This is largest mine ever designed by a half-Filipino half-Israeli transvestite polyamorous Wiccan! ZOMG! FOR GREAT JUSTICE! BLACK LIVES MATTER!

    Also Britain is building a wall to keep out migrants, making it yet another nation with a better grasp on how the world works than Democrats and GOP elite, up there with Hungary, Israel, and South Korea.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 10 Sep 16, at 17:26.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  5. #2825
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    GVChamp,

    Again, Trump can't kill what's not there. The Republicans were never making a serious attempt to court minorities in any respect. All their talk about minority voters was smokescreen to push the open border agenda of party leaders.
    Dubya won 35% of the Hispanic vote and 41% of the Asian vote.

    McCain won 31% of the Hispanic vote and 35% of the Asian vote.

    Romney won 27% of the Hispanic vote and 26% of the Asian vote.

    I'll be mildly surprised if Trump breaks 20-25% among either.

    that's not an accident. it's a false dichotomy to say that the GOP must engage in "identity politics" (whatever that means; all politics IS identity politics- see Trump and his very specific targeting of white working-class men) to succeed in winning minority voters.

    Again, even thinking Trump is an absolute idiot, which I do, at least Trump actually sees some danger there
    lol wut.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/sp...ald-trump.html
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  6. #2826
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    You're missing the point. Trump doing worse among minority voters does not mean Trump is killing the GOP's chances among minority voters. The GOP killed the GOP's chances among minority voters, and aren't seriously making any effort to change that. You can't blame Trump for GOP strategy.

    Nor can you really blame Trump for a Western-world wide trend. Republicans doing poorly among ethnic minority voters is not surprising given the history of the US or the history of the Western world. You might as well blame Gorbachev for Communism's failure. It's not Gorbachev's fault that Communism can't create Silicon Valley. That's just in the nature of Communism.

    Obviously the GOP can do better within certain groups, but there's a lot of picking and choosing. Your Ukraine article proves the point exactly: you can't attract Ukrainian votes if you look cozy to Russia, since, you know, Russia is occupying Ukraine. You can't attract Cuban votes being soft on Castro. You can't attract Asian votes being soft on Communism.

    Here's the CDU in Germany, over the moon excited because they got 31% of the Turkish vote: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/02e13d64-1...#axzz4Jt5FxA8W Which they had to get by supporting Turkish accession, which is stupid because Turkey is not an advanced democracy (see: coup)
    Again, right above, the Tories were over the Moon excited about 35% minority vote.

    So by all means you can say it's easy to woo minority voters, but, no, it's actually pretty damn hard and takes an immense amount of work. It's actually just as hard for left-wing parties, but their difficulty is getting them to turn up to vote. This is not easy stuff, and entire teams of people with a lot more money, knowledge, time, and energy than either you or I do have a hard time making this work.

    Now I think it's actually easy to get these groups to both vote more AND moderate over time. You have a strong culture that demands but also encourages assimilation, you have a strong economy that generates well-paying jobs, you have a housing market that lets people have nice single-family detached homes with white picket fences, and you have a decent public school system. Somehow this magic system seems to turn out good citizens that both vote more and vote more moderately.


    The hard part there is it cuts into someone's profit margins, and we just can't have that, can we?
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  7. #2827
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Doktor,

    I get a bit upset by repeated lies, half-truths, misrepresentations and other efforts to deliberately mislead voters.
    Since casting my first ballot (of 10) in a presidential election, it has been overwhelmingly – and increasingly – coming from the Right.

    I don’t believe I ever heard anyone on the Left (or, Center) question a former President’s use of his own money. Have you?

    = = = = =

    A little context for TopHatter and JRT:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/op...ored.html?_r=0
    It's not his money. It's not a pension. It's a publicly funded fund to keep an ex-president out of the poorhouse, which is why there is some oversight checking what's it's for when requests for money are made. It was never intended to be used (abused) as the Clintons have abused it drawing money for Clinton Foundation salaries, benefits, and equipment... but I think you know that already.

  8. #2828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooglin View Post
    It's not his money. It's not a pension. It's a publicly funded fund to keep an ex-president out of the poorhouse, which is why there is some oversight checking what's it's for when requests for money are made. It was never intended to be used (abused) as the Clintons have abused it drawing money for Clinton Foundation salaries, benefits, and equipment... but I think you know that already.
    I'm pretty sure that presidents on all sides have used their allowances to fund things like their personal museums of their times in office etc, plus staff to manage them

    none of those edificies to immortalise themselves have anything to do with keeping them out of the poor house, apart from the fact that they also get personal secdets for them and their immediate families until they drop off this mortal coil.

  9. #2829
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    As for Putin being a better leader than Obama, any idiot can see Putin is a better leader than Obama.
    That is debatable... Putin is no great strategist and by all his foreign 'adventures' has arguably left Greater Muscovy more isolated and ostracised than it was pre the Georgian business for little to no long term economic benefit but in fact long term detriment. If you had to define Putin's 'leadership' in foreign policy terms one would have to conclude that it's main aim is to divert domestic attention from his regimes domestic corruption and the problems that causes. There are times when not doing anything is actually wiser than doing something, though I wouldn't agree with Obama's mixture of "red line" and subsequent inaction in Syria or his ruling out of some options in regard to Ukraine.

  10. #2830
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    Quote Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    I'm pretty sure that presidents on all sides have used their allowances to fund things like their personal museums of their times in office etc, plus staff to manage them

    none of those edificies to immortalise themselves have anything to do with keeping them out of the poor house, apart from the fact that they also get personal secdets for them and their immediate families until they drop off this mortal coil.

    A Presidential Library is constructed with private or non-Federal funds donated to non-profit organizations established usually for the express purpose of building a Presidential Library and supporting its programs.

    Some Libraries have also received construction and development funding from state and/or local governments.

    The Library is then transferred to the Federal government and operated and maintained by NARA through its congressionally appropriated operating budget.

    Some staff and programs at Presidential Libraries are paid for with funds from associated private foundations organized to fund the construction of the Library. These private foundations also provide continuing support for Library programs and special events, such as conferences and exhibitions.


    Presidential Libraries FAQ
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

  11. #2831
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    That is debatable...
    Obama was a feckless neophyte coming into office, green as grass and believing his own press.

    I despise Putin rather intensely. But as a leader, there is no comparison between him and Barack Obama.

    Even Obama's staunchest supporters have bemoaned and been baffled his lack of leadership.
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

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    joe,

    But as a leader, there is no comparison between him and Barack Obama.
    i'll be honest, i completely do not understand this. what makes Putin a leader?

    in what way has Putin demonstrated strategic acumen and vision?

    let's look at the economy.

    Russia's GDP, 2008: 1.66 trillion
    Russia's GDP, 2015: 1.326 trillion

    and it's shrunk further since then.

    US GDP, 2008: 14.7 trillion
    US GDP, 2015: 17.95 trillion

    in short we grew about three russia's worth over the last eight years, russia's shrunk.

    let's look at strategic overview:

    russia in 2008 had undone the Ukrainian color revolution without a single Russian soldier, re-asserted dominance over Georgia, all without touching off a major unified European response. Dubya applied some weak sanctions, and froze the U.S.-Russia civil nuclear cooperation agreement.

    now? russia's economy is reeling under low oil prices and sanctions, hundreds of troops have died in the Ukraine to protect the lousy breakaways while the rest of Ukraine has moved decisively towards the West, Russia's paying billions to directly subsidize Crimea.

    so...how is Russia today a demonstration of Putin's awesome leadership?
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  13. #2833
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/11/politi...lth/index.html
    Search CNN ...
    Election 2016
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    Hillary Clinton not feeling well, leaves 9/11 event early
    By Eric Bradner, Jeff Zeleny and Shimon Prokupecz, CNN
    Updated 12:08 PM ET, Sun September 11, 2016

    Hillary Clinton left the 9/11 ceremony early
    Her campaign said she was feeling overheated
    (CNN)Hillary Clinton left the 9/11 commemoration ceremony Sunday early after she felt overheated and went to her daughter's apartment, the Clinton campaign said.

    "Secretary Clinton attended the September 11th Commemoration Ceremony for just one hour and 30 minutes this morning to pay her respects and greet some of the families of the fallen. During the ceremony, she felt overheated so departed to go to her daughter's apartment, and is feeling much better," Clinton spokesman Nick Merrill said in a statement.

    The pool accompanying Clinton says she left the ceremony around 9:30 a.m.
    While she was making her way into a van in her motorcade, Secret Service agents helped her into the van in the motorcade, a senior law enforcement official said.
    Leaving her daughter's apartment a little before noon, Clinton told reporters she was "feeling great."
    "It's a beautiful day in New York," she added, while smiling and waving to supporters on the street before getting into her motorcade.
    Michael Morell, the former CIA deputy director, told CNN's Jake Tapper Sunday he was with Clinton Friday for a national security meeting and "she looked fantastic. She had high energy."
    "There are times in all of our lives when we don't feel well," he said. "I missed some of the briefings immediately after 9/11 because I wasn't feeling well. So let's not make more of this than there is."
    Clinton suffered a two-minute coughing fit during an event in Cleveland last week, which she blamed on allergies.
    "Every time I think about Trump I get allergic," she joked in front of the crowd.
    Donald Trump and his top surrogates have claimed that she faces a health crisis, citing selectively edited videos of public events to advance claims she's suffered seizures.
    There is no credible evidence to support any of these claims. Clinton's physician -- the only person to speak on the record who has actually examined her -- has repeatedly affirmed the former secretary of state's health and fitness for the highest office in the land.
    In an interview on "Fox News Sunday" in August, former New York City mayor and Trump surrogate Rudy Giuliani first accused the mainstream media of hiding evidence, then encouraged doubters to "go online and put down 'Hillary Clinton illness.' "
    During an appearance last month on the Jimmy Kimmel show, Clinton called the GOP claims about her health a "wacky strategy."
    "I don't know why they are saying this," she said. "I think on the one hand, it is part of the wacky strategy, just say all these crazy things and maybe you can get some people to believe you."
    The most recent major health problem Clinton has suffered was a scare in 2012 following a concussion -- but she is in good health now, according to a statement from her doctor that Clinton's campaign released in July 2015.
    "Mrs. Clinton is a healthy 67-year old female whose current medical conditions include hypothyroidiam and seasonal pollen allergies," wrote Dr. Lisa Bardack, Clinton's doctor since 2001, in a health statement provided by Clinton's campaign.
    The health statement says the blood clot, also known as a thrombosis, that Clinton suffered between her brain and skull following a fainting spell and concussion in late 2012 is completely resolved.
    "She had follow-up testing in 2013, which revealed complete resolution of the effects of the concussion as well as total dissolution of the thrombosis. Mrs. Clinton also tested negative for all clotting disorders," Bardack writes.
    But as a precaution, Clinton remains on daily blood thinners, something her husband previously revealed. Clinton takes Coumadin, the brand name for the blood thinner warfarin. She also takes Armour Thyroid for her hypothyroidism, antihistamines and Vitamin B12.
    Clinton has no known drug allergies, does not smoke, use tobacco products or illicit drugs and drinks occasionally, according to Bardack, who also details her exercise regime: yoga, swimming, walking and weight training.
    Clinton is up to date on health tests, including a colonoscopy and a few other tests not often seen in a presidential candidate's health disclosure: gynecologic exam, mammogram and breast ultrasound.
    She received her most recent physical exam on March 21, 2015, according to the the statement. Her blood pressure was 100/65. Her heart rate was 72 and her EKG was normal. Her total cholesterol was 195, with an LDL ("bad cholesterol") of 118, and an
    HDL ("good cholesterol") of 64 and triglycerides of 69.
    "She is in excellent physical condition and fit to serve as President of the United States," Bardack's letter concludes.

    CNN's Dan Merica and Brianna Keilar contributed to this report.
    ...
    Last edited by troung; 11 Sep 16, at 20:24.
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  14. #2834
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    let's look at strategic overview:

    russia in 2008 had undone the Ukrainian color revolution without a single Russian soldier, re-asserted dominance over Georgia, all without touching off a major unified European response. Dubya applied some weak sanctions, and froze the U.S.-Russia civil nuclear cooperation agreement.

    now? russia's economy is reeling under low oil prices and sanctions, hundreds of troops have died in the Ukraine to protect the lousy breakaways while the rest of Ukraine has moved decisively towards the West, Russia's paying billions to directly subsidize Crimea.

    so...how is Russia today a demonstration of Putin's awesome leadership?
    Yes, let's look at the strategic picture. The US was actively seeking Ukrainian and Georgian NATO membership over the objections of France and Germany to the point that they tried to get around them. By helping both countries to meet NATO standards without having NATO approval to do so. Obama actively sought the destruction of a key Russian ally, Syria.

    Today, it is militarily impossible for NATO to defend either the Ukraines or Georgia and truth be learned, the Baltic States ain't in a great position and Assad ain't going anywhere.
    Chimo

  15. #2835
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    joe,
    i'll be honest, i completely do not understand this. what makes Putin a leader?

    in what way has Putin demonstrated strategic acumen and vision?
    ons, hundreds of troops have died in the Ukraine to protect the lousy breakaways while the rest of Ukraine has moved decisively towards the West, Russia's paying billions to directly subsidize Crimea.

    so...how is Russia today a demonstration of Putin's awesome leadership?
    Putin's leadership vs Obama's is best elucidated in this article:

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/secre...earn-red-akrim

    Clearly the Russian economy is currently in trouble. I'm not praising the consequences of Putin's actions, far from it.
    But Putin, through fair means and foul (mostly foul and even despicable), has led.
    His goals and the methods to achieve them are not laudable and they've had serious consequences. But he has led.

    Obama has done anything but. He has dithered and divided. As I said, even his staunchest supports have been left sorely disappointed and disillusioned. Quite the remarkable come-down from 2008, when anything seemed possible and people were literally swooning in the streets.

    That, more than anything, is my point.
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

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