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PUTIN...What's wrong with him? What's right with him?

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  • #31
    Eastern philosophy
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Versus View Post
      Problem with that logic is that it doesn't take into the account the nature of the minds that wants to free. Some things were contained for a reason.

      No Sail, East and West Germany was one nation and one country split in half, but saying that that is the same for the whole range of nations that are totally different is a recipe for death and destruction. Life is not a laboratory where you can do experiment on a sample and than apply that finding on the entire thing. It doesn't work that way.
      Others here have said let Russia annex the Donbass and in some years the Dondass will want to reintegrate with Ukraine and the west. Do you disagree with that? Or will you say that they were one country if it ever happened?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Versus View Post
        East is inclusive, West is exclusive and that difference is the issue. The thing is, that the East wants to be friends with the West but the West doesn't want to be friend with the East. East wants that because in its inclusive thinking, it thinks that it can be both, while West thinks that only its way of life is right and valid, because it is exclusive and everything else that lays beyond that exclusivity is unacceptable and wrong. So accepting something that is wrong, aka accepting Eastern identity as equal,automatically demeans the Western way of life, because if that is accepted, exclusivity is gone, so Eastern culture is seen and has been treated by the West as something negative and ultimately it becomes a threat. It becomes "the other" aka the enemy.
        East, on the other hand, in its inclusive logic, if accepts the West as equal, it again, demeans its principle, cause East wants to be inclusive and by accepting exclusivity of the others it achieves its inclusive goal but in the same time it seeds its own destruction, because exclusive ones living with the inclusive ones, will want to preserve their exclusivity and will always see inclusive ones as oppressors and tyrants. That is how their wish to preserve their exclusivity becomes the struggle for freedom from the inclusive ones.

        Thus, the only way to keep exclusivity forever is to eradicate all inclusive ones. Croatia,Ukraine and Montenegro are perfect examples for this.
        Versus, I pretty much agree with you if we just redefine "East" as criminals who have managed to hijack countries away from their people, "inclusive" as looking to expand their network of corrupt influence and "friendship" as robbing the people blind.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by citanon View Post
          Versus, I pretty much agree with you if we just redefine "East" as criminals who have managed to hijack countries away from their people, "inclusive" as looking to expand their network of corrupt influence and "friendship" as robbing the people blind.
          Nice.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by sail4evr View Post
            I really don't undertand what you are talking about but perhaps you can make an example. How is Russia inclusive?
            I don't know what Putin thinks or what are Russia's plans. I can only guess and compare with the situation we had and still have here, because I see a lot of similarities. I don't favor Putin nor Obama, aka I am not aligned to either side in this conflict and I don't support bloodshed in any way shape or form. Personally, which is different from my analytical view, I think that both, Russian and American sides are wrong. European as well. Personally I don't think that Putin is trying to rebuild the Russian Empire, simply because he lacks understanding of the principles of how Tzarist Russia was built and how it functioned. Because he was ex KGB and by default, he cannot grasp the principles of how it functioned cause as a KGB and as a communist, he is raised against idea of monarchy and Imperial thinking. However, he is raised in another form of global domination and that is ideological aka USSR one, which, as we all know has failed. So the only thing that Putin can be, is a realist that functions within certain frame. (I will have to post often when I type because my connection sucks) so this post will be finished with with the line "And that's it" so as long as you don't see that line, I am still typing.

            So if he tries to rebuild Imperial Russia, that will spell disaster because

            A.He doesn't know how to do it but has a power to do it.
            B.The world has changed since the time of Tzarist Russia so that would be an exercise in futility and the bizarre case of necromancy.


            What he might try to do is to regain Russian sense of self esteem and pride, which was seriously shaken during the Yeltsin era and after the demise of Soviet union. Now the question arises from this set up, why he thinks that Yeltsin was wrong and why after the demise of Soviet union, Russian self esteem was so badly hurt? The main cause why "reforms" in Russia failed, lies in the incompatibility of logical thinking that exists between Americans and Russians. Aka the inclusive and exclusive context. To put it bluntly as possible, Russia, after the fall of communism accepted the Western ways, but did you in the West ever thought of accepting something from Russia? Theoretically speaking, as an abstract, ask yourself did you ever thought of accepting anything from that system? I don't think so, because you think that it was bad to the bone, that it was 100% failure. But how can you know that, when you were never living under the communist rule? Did it ever tickled your imagination, maybe it wasn't all that bad? Maybe there was something good in it after all?

            Its not the thinking that America is No 1, it is the thinking that nothing can possibly be be better than America. Ever.That everything else outside of America is second best or bad or evil. It is that lack of introspection lack of critical thinking that prevents auto-check feature that is dangerous. Because it can lead to the same, if not worse totalitarianism that communist rule.

            But that way of thinking is not American way of thinking, it is inherited way of thinking form the past. It is inherited from the culture of the West,from the British Imperial culture and from the European culture. Ultimately that exclusivity draws its roots form the Catholicism where only worthy are deserved to be saved. I am not saying that they are wrong, this is not that kind of discussion. But I think that inability to doubt in your actions is. That almost dogmatically accept that you are always right and that everything that you do is just and good, is wrong.

            Russians, aka the Orthodox Christians, have a different approach. They can doubt. That is how they rejected imperialism and accepted communism and when it failed they accepted open market liberal progressive ideology and when its failed, they are searching for something else. But since West is singular it its exclusivity, aka nothing can be better than the Western way, aka corporate,global automatically labels any change of Russia course as revisionism or back to something that was bad. And it is bad, simply because it is not Western. But what if it can be?
            Again personally, I think that what Putin does is trying to "Russify" the neo liberal Western logic and that will result in a epic fail, because that kind of thinking implies that Russians must be exclusive and they cannot be so, because if they are Orthodox, they can be only inclusive. So applying something that is directly opposed to your culture and value system will result in annihilation of that culture, like + and - will result in 0.

            This however doesn't mean that Western system is bad or evil, its different, just as Eastern system is different. If you accept the fact that it is different than you are thinking inclusively, you acknowledge that something else exists that is not you and you form your stance towards it, hostile or not, that is a preference. But if you cannot accept that fact, that there are different things than you, and that only you exist and that everything else that is not you, needs to be either converted into you or be destroyed, than you are thinking exclusively.

            The most radical example of this logic happened in Yugoslavia but as well in Ukraine.
            After the end of WW1, Serbs were victorious and deeply devoted to the idea of Yugoslavia. We thought that by defeating the Austro Hungarian empire we would bring freedom to our Slavic brethren, Croats,Muslims and Slovenians. Thus the idea of united southern Slav country, Yugoslavia came to reality. In it, we gave away our identity, our sovereignty as in Yugoslavia, Serbia as independent state ceased to exist. Our elite believed that by sacrificing Serbia for the idea of greater good, for Yugoslavia was a good thing. However, it was not to be. It was a trap, designed for a single purpose and that purpose was our extermination.

            Serbs, whom fought to liberate ones that they thought to be their brothers were subjected to genocide by the same ones they have freed. And the ones whom were performing that genocide were living under the Austro Hungarian, aka Western rule. So Serbs wanted to INCLUDE other Slavs, regardless of their confession, because they thought of them as Slavs, as a group, as inclusive whole, into one common state, yet they were betrayed and butchered in a most monstrous ways by them, simply because they were different confession. Aka they were not "special" or they were not EXCLUSIVE as them. And since they were not exclusive, they were scheduled for extermination.

            Same thing happened in Ukraine during the WW2 with the Bandera's troops, the very ones that are now called the "Right sector" aka National Guard, and the very ones your national guard will be training. So we are not talking about economy or wet fantasies that some leaders might have. We are talking about genocide.

            And that's it.
            Last edited by Versus; 06 Mar 15,, 16:31.

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            • #36
              Analytically speaking, things are as follows.

              Human civilization at its present stage, is growing and it consumes natural resources at the ever increasing paste. As I've said before, that the conflicts waged here and especially in Kosovo were not about human rights (although there was violation of them) nor it was about some fictional morality aka humanitarian intervention, it was about securing the energy corridor that is tasked to bring energy from the east and middle east to the Europe, trough NABUCCO pipeline. That plan was trumped in Georgia, so a new supply route was needed. The nature of oil fields is that as they die, they cough up huge amounts of gas, so as Middle Eastern oil fields wither away, they will be coughing huge chunks of gas. The plan was to tap there and supply Europe from that source. That project is called TAP, Trans Adriatic Pipeline, or one of its variations. Again, enters Russia enters Ukraine enters Assad, Syria, and the "Southern Stream" vs "Tap" and voila, we have a gas or "pipe wars".
              The point is, that as Northern Stream, the one that Germany is hooked on, serves as option A and the Qatar pipeline is the option B. Having gas supplies from independent sources, aka ones that are controlled by the Russians and other one that is controlled by the Americans, Europeans should get energy independence cause they can chose between two suppliers. If Russians get stingy Eu can run to Americans, if Americans do the same Europe can go to Russians, so it has a freedom to chose, its called energy diversification aka you are not sentenced to a single source and you cannot be black mailed by your only supplier. Common market logic, that protects national interests as well.

              Problem however is, da money. Money is not an value by default, yet it is a representation of value. Unit of value. Like a cm or inch. And new values are made with the usage of energy, thus money and energy are connected and affect one another trough value. So now when the energy is scarce, from whatever the reason, no new value is created and thus problems arise in the financial sector. Since financial sector prints money, which is its main product, the lack of value that would be priced with that money, creates situation where some things are over valued. So we will see increase of prices and births of various trends which will be increasingly insane and idiotic, like Apple's intention to by tons of gold to make gold smart watches. Personally I think that, if they want to play that way, the best way to do something profitable but equally dumb is to gold plate the toilet paper. That would ensure steady stream of profit, and it would be far more useful and practical than the gold smart watches. But as the system gets increasingly irrational and the levels of insanity increase, you will see more and more idiotic things that will be grandiose, flashy, catchy for the eye but completely useless and retarded. This will drain the incentive to do real work and real research, yet the real work and real research and progress will be subsidized by the illusion of progress, aka the science fiction or popular science where 12 inch monitor will be replaced by the same monitor built by the same technology but this time it will be 16 inch and that will be marketed and branded as a "leap in technology". More and more money and resources will be devoted to these kinds of "leaps" with ever decreasing delivered results. Those are diminishing returns of technology. And they are especially visible in the area where I work, the entertainment industry, where digital aka virtual works are overpriced.


              Overall this will push fight for the remaining natural resources to a whole new level and those fights will be brutal. So on one side you will have a camp that craves resources and on the other side you will have a camp that defends those resources and it will be fight to the end, between them. Russia will go with the Siberian pipeline and gas exploration, which I doubt that it will work, because permafrost is melting and those holes that are appearing are the sign of that. On the other hand the American shale and liquid gas bonanza is equally doomed as the rate of production will never be sufficient enough to satisfy the demand. So I predict that both Russia and America have enough power to stop each other in this fight and as the result, no one will be getting anything and the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards, rather quickly.

              Will that void be filled with Caliphate, remains to be seen. All three sides are doing extremely well for now. But one thing is certain, when it hits it will be convergence of #!@$... storm of epic proportions, likes of which we never seen.
              Last edited by Versus; 06 Mar 15,, 16:36.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by sail4evr View Post
                Others here have said let Russia annex the Donbass and in some years the Dondass will want to reintegrate with Ukraine and the west. Do you disagree with that? Or will you say that they were one country if it ever happened?
                No, because of the religious and thus cultural differences, that will never happen. What is likely to happen, if pro Russian Ukraininas loose, is that they will be ethnically cleansed from Ukraine or killed, just as Croatians Serbs were, during the WW2 and during the 1995. You have to understand that these things, religious based conflicts between Catholics and Orthodox Christians never stop and they are fought until one side is completely annihilated. Time is not important in these conflicts, they were fought for the same reason for hundreds of years and they will be fought when ever the chance is created , with same brutality and same determination. That is in their nature.There were some people in the EU parlament that said that Orthodox Christians pose greater threat to Europe than Muslims, so...yea, go figure.
                Last edited by Versus; 06 Mar 15,, 16:56.

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                • #38
                  Never knew Ukrainians are Catholics to begin with.
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    Never knew Ukrainians are Catholics to begin with.
                    Uniats and Catholic against Orthodox Ukrainians. It is a mix of Croatia and Montenegro cases, in a way.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Versus View Post
                      No, because of the religious and thus cultural differences, that will never happen. What is likely to happen, if pro Russian Ukraininas loose, is that they will be ethnically cleansed from Ukraine or killed, just as Croatians Serbs were, during the WW2 and during the 1995. You have to understand that these things, religious based conflicts between Catholics and Orthodox Christians never stop and they are fought until one side is completely annihilated. Time is not important in these conflicts, they were fought for the same reason for hundreds of years and they will be fought when ever the chance is created , with same brutality and same determination. That is in their nature.There were some people in the EU parlament that said that Orthodox Christians pose greater threat to Europe than Muslims, so...yea, go figure.
                      Well, a lot of these "Pro-Russian Ukrainians" are actually Russian. And even the ones who are not, still has as their mother-tongue Russian and have completely different views and culture of the rest of Ukraine.
                      But this thing about Catholicism and Easter Orthodox conflict doesn't make much sense since both Russians and Ukrainians are Orthodox... And actually, if it wasn't for the Holodomor and others, including Western smear campaigns, Ukrainians and Russians would not even see themselves as different peoples, their difference is like the difference between Germans and Austrians: different government, a history that can't be separated from one another and basically the same language with some tiny differences in expressions like kartoffel v. erdäpfel. Until very recently, Ukrainian was only considered a dialect of Russians and Ukraine itself means "Frontier land" as Österreich (Austria) means Realm of the East.
                      For many, many years the capital of Germany was Vienna (Holy German Empire) and of Russia was Kiev (Kievan Rus, what is funny because I have a rooster with this name).

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Vargas View Post
                        Well, a lot of these "Pro-Russian Ukrainians" are actually Russian. And even the ones who are not, still has as their mother-tongue Russian and have completely different views and culture of the rest of Ukraine.
                        But this thing about Catholicism and Easter Orthodox conflict doesn't make much sense since both Russians and Ukrainians are Orthodox... And actually, if it wasn't for the Holodomor and others, including Western smear campaigns, Ukrainians and Russians would not even see themselves as different peoples, their difference is like the difference between Germans and Austrians: different government, a history that can't be separated from one another and basically the same language with some tiny differences in expressions like kartoffel v. erdäpfel. Until very recently, Ukrainian was only considered a dialect of Russians and Ukraine itself means "Frontier land" as Österreich (Austria) means Realm of the East.
                        For many, many years the capital of Germany was Vienna (Holy German Empire) and of Russia was Kiev (Kievan Rus, what is funny because I have a rooster with this name).
                        Well no, there are Orthodox whom recognize Pope and are for the union with the Vatican and than there are ones whom don't and whom are just Orthodox Christians. Than you have a cultural heritage of the past, parts of the Ukraine that were exposed to western influence under the Austrian and Polish rule etc...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Versus View Post
                          Well no, there are Orthodox whom recognize Pope and are for the union with the Vatican and than there are ones whom don't and whom are just Orthodox Christians. Than you have a cultural heritage of the past, parts of the Ukraine that were exposed to western influence under the Austrian and Polish rule etc...
                          They are still orthodox... There are different Catholic and Protestant cults, but they are still more alike than different. The conflict in Ukraine is much bigger than just some minor religion differences. It started as a punishment for Russia having halted the plans of the United States to invade Syria to try to take Bashar Al-Assad down. The West then started to explore every small difference between Ukrainians and Russians to the limit, to try to take Ukraine away from Russia's sphere of influence.

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                          • #43
                            :pop:
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Vargas View Post
                              They are still orthodox... There are different Catholic and Protestant cults, but they are still more alike than different. The conflict in Ukraine is much bigger than just some minor religion differences. It started as a punishment for Russia having halted the plans of the United States to invade Syria to try to take Bashar Al-Assad down. The West then started to explore every small difference between Ukrainians and Russians to the limit, to try to take Ukraine away from Russia's sphere of influence.
                              Yea them damn Yanky tanks on Maidan were a killer for Yanukovych. Not so his own 'Dictatorship Laws' of Jan 16th last year or his massive thefts of public funds. But then you'd know this right? You were here?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                                Never knew Ukrainians are Catholics to begin with.
                                In Northern California, they are all baptists.. Tons of them are brought into the sacramento area thru some type of Church Visa , not sure how that works. they stay for a few years and then nranch out to the bay area etc

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