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What was the point of Hitler's project?

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  • #91
    Mihais,

    But without the Soviets to resupply, don't we need to reconsider George Marshall's total mobilization plan of 200 US divisions supported by the entire navy on one front?
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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    • #92
      Agreed,but then you have to land those 200 divisions against 200 Axis.And you don't really have that many choices to land within airpower range.Then you need to lose millions of men.
      I still believe the Americans win the war,even with the Soviets out.In 1946,with a few nukes.Even then it can be a negociated peace,instead of surrender.But I'm aware that's evenmore speculative than any what if based on the wartime period.
      Those who know don't speak
      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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      • #93
        4 US aircraft carriers with Britain as the unsinkable 5th super carrier and Germany could not leave the USSR at all with Soviet armies and airplanes streaming across the Urals (Yes, Stalin would have been still in the fight or Stalin wouldn't be Stalin ... and no Hitler would not have shut up because that would not have been Hitler. And Stalin got an unrestricted LL line in the East with access to now a penal Japanese army and Korean and Chinese armies (Chiang's armies were just sitting around)). The BIA can move at will with the RN and the RCN having complete dominance. The force density ratio across the English channel would have been even with the air component going to the allies as it traditinally had.

        Keeping that Stalin would still act like Stalin and he just got Korea and Manchura with LL in full force in the East, ie his factories are now running 24/7 with a SECURED LL pipeline and more than double his available manpower ith a penal Japanese army, and Chinese and Korean armies.

        How the hell could Stalin be exhausted?
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Feb 15,, 16:02.
        Chimo

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Triple C View Post
          I think the traditional historiography that Pearl Harbor changed everything and roused the US for war is overdramatic. Interventionists already outnumbered isolationists on the eve of Pearl Harbor, according to White House's scecret polling. The US would be in the war eventually, without Axis provocation. But I have no idea how long that would have taken.
          The US was in the war as soon as France fell....it just took us awhile to get in with both feet.
          Last edited by Albany Rifles; 09 Feb 15,, 16:55.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            4 US aircraft carriers with Britain as the unsinkable 5th super carrier and Germany could not leave the USSR at all with Soviet armies and airplanes streaming across the Urals (Yes, Stalin would have been still in the fight or Stalin wouldn't be Stalin ... and no Hitler would not have shut up because that would not have been Hitler. And Stalin got an unrestricted LL line in the East with access to now a penal Japanese army and Korean and Chinese armies (Chiang's armies were just sitting around)). The BIA can move at will with the RN and the RCN having complete dominance. The force density ratio across the English channel would have been even with the air component going to the allies as it traditinally had.

            Keeping that Stalin would still act like Stalin and he just got Korea and Manchura with LL in full force in the East, ie his factories are now running 24/7 with a SECURED LL pipeline and more than double his available manpower ith a penal Japanese army, and Chinese and Korean armies.

            How the hell could Stalin be exhausted?
            What makes you think that Chiang or Mao would oblige Stalin to do his bidding? They didn't oblige Japan either or each other.

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            • #96
              Who said anything about Chiang or Mao? Stalin didn't raise armies by consent. Hell, Stalin invented penal units. Stalin was one who would grab what he wants regardless of what those under him thought.
              Chimo

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              • #97
                Sir,there is an issue.Stalin did all that,while holding the families hostages.Meaning that the NKVD knew who lived where.
                There were regiments of Cossacks who switched sides after their commanders had shot the Commisars,but only when the Axis was approaching their home(or was already there).The Ukrainians were recruited after the Reds took territories back(millions of people migrated West to try to prevent living under them again).In 1941,they simply deserted and went home.Or surrendered and became Hiwis.
                Marshal Zhukov even made it specific.The families of POW's will be shot.Although rescinded later,the alternative of being the family of an enemy of the people isn't the greatest of deals.

                If you get Japanese penal armies West,you create a Waffen SS army.And without establishing a full police control and give many examples(tens or hundreds of thousands),I doubt the Chinese peasants will behave better.

                The Chinese mercenaries,Hungarians ex POW's,Jews&other ethnic minorities+the dregs of the entire Russian Empire won the Russian Civil War for the Reds.But then it was simple.Kill,loot &rape to your hearts content.''Liberate'' all the goods of the aristocracy&burgeoise and make their women common property.
                Making human waves assaults is the only thing the Chinese&Koreans can be used for anyway and it involves a lot of dying and no loot.
                Those who know don't speak
                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                  Sir,there is an issue.Stalin did all that,while holding the families hostages.Meaning that the NKVD knew who lived where.
                  Done. Manchuria and Korea would be under Stalin's control.

                  Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                  If you get Japanese penal armies West,you create a Waffen SS army.And without establishing a full police control and give many examples(tens or hundreds of thousands),I doubt the Chinese peasants will behave better. ...
                  Making human waves assaults is the only thing the Chinese&Koreans can be used for anyway and it involves a lot of dying and no loot.
                  And your point is?
                  Chimo

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                  • #99
                    They'll desert,switch sides or die achieving almost nothing.
                    Those who know don't speak
                    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                    • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      They'll desert,switch sides
                      Language barrier. All the Germans see is a bunch of screaming Orientals charging them ... just as they did in the real world

                      Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      or die achieving almost nothing.
                      Fix in place and chew up enemy ammo.
                      Chimo

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                      • Mihais,

                        With the the tonnage in the Pacific shifted to European Theater? There would be no shortage of warships and transports to land the US divisions. The problem would be getting enough ports, rail lines and roads sustain so many divisions overland.
                        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                        Comment


                        • and if the Italian campaign was any indication, good luck to the panzers that have to evict an American division backed up by naval gunfire, if not aerial superiority.

                          i have my doubts that Stalin would bother using Chinese/Japanese/Koreans en masse as penal battalions. manpower was never his LIMFAC (although it got close by the end of the war); first it was industrialization and then logistics. probably not worth the bother of trying to round up a quarter of a million people who wouldn't speak the language, probably wouldn't be armed, had to be transported/guarded thousands of miles, and fed (if only to get to the battlefield).

                          slave/penal labor, maybe, although again the gulag wasn't short on folks either.

                          if he were to quash the japanese it would be to remove, for once and for all, the threat on his flank. everything else he got would be a nice-to-have.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                          • My original point was that Germany was lucky that Japan didn't attack the USSR. It would have freed up the USN and the British Empire real fast. I have read nothing to change my mind. Unless Stalin stopped being Stalin and Hitler stopped being Hilter, both would still be in the fight, even from the Urals. With a secured LL LOC to his secured Ural factories, Stalin can armed his armies galore and if need be, he got more manpower available than Germany's nightmares could fathom ... and that is before counting the BIA and the USMC.

                            Yes, Stalin didn't need Chinese/Korean/Japanese Armies but they were there and would have been available had Tojo became really stupid.
                            Chimo

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                            • so knowing all of this, it makes me wonder why stalin didn't attack japan until the war was just about done. stalin didn't really need excuses to attack other countries, after all...
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              • Mainly because I don't think Stalin knew what to make of Churchill and FDR. He had a hell of a time convincing these two to open a real 2nd Front.
                                Chimo

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