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What was the point of Hitler's project?

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  • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    2 things helped doom the Germans from the start.

    1. They failed to fully mobilize their economy until well into 1943. That screwed them from jump street. And to allow the economy to be controlled to the level they did by the SS was madness.

    2. They overengineered everything. The used machine brass safety pins in applications where the Allies used Cotter pins. And that craftsmanship in the eaches caused them to fail repeatedly in the system. Their issues with armor have already been highlighted. They also frittered away resources on weapons they didn't need. Why the hell did they need the Bismark, Tirpitz or Prinz Eugen for? They were never a global surface navy...and they were not going to compete with the RN....or the USN for that matter.
    Germany didn't understand modern industrial warfare. Not properly. By the time it got religion on the subject the moment had passed. That & it was at the whim of an obsessive control freak with ADD. We need a navy; we need to sink vast amounts of steel into border defences in the east (little known but consumed a lot of resources); we need a big army; we need this tank; we need that aircraft; we need this 'super weapon'; we need to chew up resources killing millions 'lesser races'. Worked OK when everyone else wasn't ready, but as soon as they tooled up properly & sorted their doctrine issues out it came back to bite them on the ass. Also the reason why Asty's points were never going to work. Unless the military knife Adolf at the height of his success - before he invades the USSR - he is going to charge on ahead & blow his advantage.
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    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
      Short term, Germany goes through a very severe recession due to all the integration and the fact that she was a plunder economy.

      Long term, Hitler is seen as the greatest German politician since Bismarck. Basically by 1938 Hitler had achieved the wet dream of German nationalist-conservatives. His domestic position was a LOT shakier beforehand, because everyone was scared he was going to get into a war with the western Allies. (Which was precisely what he WANTED, but ironically if he got his way in 1938 Germany would have been in a significantly worse position). By 1939 he had silenced/jailed/intimidated/impressed enough of his naysayers, plus the German economy/military was improved hugely by her Czechslovakia seizures.
      Originally posted by astralis View Post
      on the other hand, hitler was also -very- close to realizing his dream of turning Germany from a regional power to a superpower.

      all he had to do were two things:

      - don't declare war on the USSR.
      - don't declare war on the US.

      Churchill could fight on from the sides but if Germany was willing to pay the price for grinding through Malta, then there would be no way for UK to match Germany for weight of men and metal if north Africa was the main show and not a side show.

      if Suez falls then UK political opinion would be hard-pressed to continue the war to no gain.

      with the UK and the US out of the picture...and German armies at the Caucasus Mountains...no fear of a western front, no bombing of the German homelands and transportation networks...with no US LL to the USSR....-then- Hitler could safely consider a USSR invasion.
      I know the Colonel said we can't switch personalities around. Hitler couldn't stop being Hitler. But Adolf was in a pretty good spot at the end of 1938. What if he started to consolidate his gains and incorporated the new Germanic people into Greater Germany? He should have good political backing for it. His political capital was through the roof after acquiring the Sudeten land and re-armed Germany. He could have turned his attention inward and modernized German industry into a more Americanized one (assembly line and interchangeable parts). A fully industrialized Greater Germany in 1944 would be a serious opponent for the western allies.

      But then...Hitler just couldn't stop being Hitler....
      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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      • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
        So did with German technology too. Panzer IV Tiger 1 and II was still the best tank out there but Germany couldn't manufacture it fast enough to replace the losses in comparison with US & Soviet production rates. Don't forget that Germany was the first nation to come up with jet engine technology or guided missile technology.
        Sorry, the big cats were horrible tanks. They were overly complex ATG bunkers on tracks, that broke down often. They were all overweight for the automotive gears of the era. A tank with limited mobility is really not much use. Might as well use SPGs, at least they fire usable HE shells. Panther's gun had horrible HE rounds. Almost useless for infantry support. Tigers had good HE rounds, but the damn thing was overly complex. Those interleave wheels...oh god almighty...why? Who the hell came up with that idea on a vehicle that was expected to operate on dirt road? Ever heard of mud? Tiger II looked awesome, with usable HE rounds on one of the most powerful tank guns in WW2. Overweight, over complex, overpriced. I'd rather have 2 Panzer IVs than a Tiger II. Panzer IV was reliable, fired usable HE round, decent mobility, and easy to maintain.

        By the way, did you know that parts on a Tiger tank were individually fitted? One could not expect to take a part off one Tiger and place it on another Tiger to make it work. A craftsman or mechanic was needed to fit the part. You don't see that on a Sherman. One could piece together a single working Sherman tank from parts of multiple tanks.
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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        • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
          I know the Colonel said we can't switch personalities around. Hitler couldn't stop being Hitler. But Adolf was in a pretty good spot at the end of 1938. What if he started to consolidate his gains and incorporated the new Germanic people into Greater Germany? He should have good political backing for it. His political capital was through the roof after acquiring the Sudeten land and re-armed Germany. He could have turned his attention inward and modernized German industry into a more Americanized one (assembly line and interchangeable parts). A fully industrialized Greater Germany in 1944 would be a serious opponent for the western allies.

          But then...Hitler just couldn't stop being Hitler....
          Hitler was also broke. If Germany didn't go to war in September 1939, she would be bankrupt by January 1939.

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          • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
            The root cause of many of these "blunders" was Hitlers style of leadership itself; instead of instituting a relatively efficient bureaucracy/government, Hitler was so paranoid about losing his grip on the leadership of the country that he played different divisions/factions of the government off against one another. Instead of one intelligence service, Nazi Germany had at least 2 or 3; instead of one branch of the armed forces, Hitler instituted his own "personal" branch of the armed forces called the Waffen SS which, while a very fanatical and ruthless branch of the military, actually drained manpower and resources away from the "legitimate" armed forces of Nazi Germany, particularly the Heer.

            Example: Nazi Germany had at least three separate intelligence agencies that I know of and, for the most part, they tended to compete against each another, instead of cooperating with one another; this included the Abwehr (the military intelligence organization), the Gestapo (or Geheime Staatspolizei, "Secret State Police"), and the SD (or Sicherheitsdienst, "Security Service").
            Germany also had 3 distinct land forces: Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe field divisions.
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Hitler was also broke. If Germany didn't go to war in September 1939, she would be bankrupt by January 1939.
              Do what the Greeks are doing, get money from the Germ....oh wait...
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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              • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                Not sure Poland would, she got territory from th Czechs as part of the Munich accords, France tried for years to get the two of them to work together and they both refused. Further the Bled Agreement isolated the Czechs from its neighbors ad left them dependent on France and the USSR, neither of which could actually send help. As an aside, there is a chance of Hungary jumping on Czechoslovakia's back if Germany attacks.
                There is 100% certainty Hungary would try.But they had behind them an army that knew its way to Budapest. They eventually went in,but only after it was all over.
                Poland got land,but there is a slight difference between the why's.A war is a different game. With Germany bleeding,a Polish army mobilizing and a French demonstration,you can guarantee the Germans are looking over their shoulders.You may recall that up until 1938 the Poles intended to fight the Germans on the offensive.
                Also,the German army of 1938 is a piece of junk.Fighting through a fortified mountain defense may be simply too much.Heck,the Panzer divisions broke during the march to Vienna,when all that was thrown at them was flowers.
                Those who know don't speak
                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                  Hitler was also broke. If Germany didn't go to war in September 1939, she would be bankrupt by January 1939.
                  There is some truth in that.But the war wasn't supposed to be WW2,but the fourth partition of Poland.
                  Those who know don't speak
                  He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                  • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                    Those interleave wheels...oh god almighty...why? Who the hell came up with that idea on a vehicle that was expected to operate on dirt road? Ever heard of mud?
                    The interleaved road wheels on German tanks gets a lot of flak when people talk about reliability and maintenance requirements, which is entirely understandable as they just look overly complex compared to contemporary armored vehicles, but the more I read, the more I think that's undeserved. Look at a ground pressure chart for tanks of the era - it's impressive just how much lower it was for German tanks, and how much more evenly distributed. The somewhat obese Panther and even the King Tiger had lower, flatter ground pressure 'footprints' than the M4 Sherman or a T-34! This directly translates into ride stability and cross-country mobility, especially in soft terrain like swamps or mud. Looking at primary sources they also don't actually appear to be more prone to freezing or clogging with dirt than any other setup from the period was, despite the tight-meshed appearance.

                    Granted, they did have downsides (more complex to manufacture and repair), but I actually think they're one of the few sensible features on what were otherwise not particularly well-designed machines.

                    That said, I do concur with the main point of your post, and hit some of the same topics a bit earlier in the thread.
                    "Nature abhors a moron." - H.L. Mencken

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                    • mihais,

                      All fine and cool,but Hitler had no time for such niceties.The Soviets were coming.
                      doubtful in a year or two. everything I've read indicates Stalin was thinking at best 1943-1944 before he would be ready for offensive actions.

                      and considering Germany's problem for the first year and a half, two years of war was that they couldn't find/encircle enough Soviet divisions....a Soviet offensive, without LL mobility...against German interior lines of defense/intact transportation net/smaller defensive area, would be handing the Wehrmacht a gift on a platter, so I'd think.
                      Last edited by astralis; 19 Feb 15,, 14:37.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                      • gunnut,

                        But Adolf was in a pretty good spot at the end of 1938. What if he started to consolidate his gains and incorporated the new Germanic people into Greater Germany? He should have good political backing for it. His political capital was through the roof after acquiring the Sudeten land and re-armed Germany. He could have turned his attention inward and modernized German industry into a more Americanized one (assembly line and interchangeable parts). A fully industrialized Greater Germany in 1944 would be a serious opponent for the western allies.

                        But then...Hitler just couldn't stop being Hitler....
                        yeah, hitler was an impatient guy, but a lot of this was because he HAD been patient for years. by the way, it's also hard to argue that 1939-1940 was a mistake, either, considering Greater Germany went from being the strongest regional power to completely dominating Western Europe. his gambles those years paid off.

                        1941 was where it didn't pay off. and of the two things that hitler shouldn't have done that I mentioned, if Hitler just didn't randomly declare war on the US....it's fairly likely Germany would have survived the war, even if it was "only" at 1939 borders.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                        • There is some truth in that.But the war wasn't supposed to be WW2,but the fourth partition of Poland.
                          precisely, the whole german strategy up until 1941 was to fight a medium-sized regional war at a time but not a global one. and it was a fairly successful strategy.

                          suddenly in 1941 hitler threw that entire strategy out and made it one big global war.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            mihais,



                            doubtful in a year or two. everything I've read indicates Stalin was thinking at best 1943-1944 before he would be ready for offensive actions.

                            and considering Germany's problem for the first year and a half, two years of war was that they couldn't find/encircle enough Soviet divisions....a Soviet offensive, without LL mobility...against German interior lines of defense/intact transportation net/smaller defensive area, would be handing the Wehrmacht a gift on a platter, so I'd think.
                            Yes,yes,but what's worse?To be encircled on the Vistula and lose your army or be encircled at Briansk and lose your army,industry and a huge chunk of the population(which btw,received the Axis as liberators).

                            Btw,the Red army of 1941 was way better than the Wehrmacht wrt motorization&logistics.And the war isn't carried on in the vastness of Russia.

                            There is no sense to declare war on the USA,but a lot to invade USSR.
                            Last edited by Mihais; 19 Feb 15,, 16:58.
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                            • mihais,

                              Btw,the Red army of 1941 was way better than the Wehrmacht wrt motorization&logistics
                              this certainly wasn't displayed in the cauldron battles of 1941. nor was it displayed in the Winter War.

                              by the offensives of 1944, sure, but by this time the Red army had been beneficiaries of LL trucks, etc.

                              in this scenario the Soviets were going to go on the offensive, always harder, before they had all of this material and operational experience. even by the end of the war, while Soviet operational art far exceeded the German, tactically, they were taking horrific losses from the old men and boys of the Volkssturm.

                              There is no sense to declare war on the USA,but a lot to invade USSR.
                              perhaps, but if Hitler wasn't so impatient there was no reason for him to declare war in June of 1941, with a big air war going on and the British nipping at his heels in North Africa.

                              he would have been in a relatively stronger position against the USSR in a war starting in 1942 or 1943, with the UK out of the war (or at least largely neutralized), a better transportation net, and the Wehrmacht in the Caucasus.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                              • Not shown,maybe,but they were.
                                There's no deep battle in Finland at -30C .

                                The first echelon may die.The second may die.But again,it's way better to die on the Vistula or at the slopes of Carpathians than in the cauldrons in Russia.

                                The Axis doesn't get better and it has no benefit from the huge Soviet supplies captured.
                                Those who know don't speak
                                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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