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  • Manmohan Singh sabotaged India’s Nuclear capability

    Manmohan sabotaged India’s Nuclear capability

    The then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh followed an unwritten policy of severely downsizing both the Fast Breeder Reactor (FBT) as well as the thorium-based technology programme, thereby making India dependent on foreign countries for advanced nuclear technology, key scientists claim on the condition of anonymity. The scientists say that by 2003, the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) — which comes directly under the Prime Minister — was within four years of mastering the 1 Gigawatt nuclear power plant technology now being supplied by China to Pakistan.

    However, "from 2005 onwards, the PM turned his attention towards signing a nuclear deal, which would make India one of the top three global markets for nuclear power companies in the US and Europe rather than a competitor of companies based in these locations" in the lucrative nuclear power technology market. At the same time, "no serious effort was made to clear the legal and other obstacles to mining extra quantities of uranium in Andhra Pradesh and the Northeast".

    Instead, the (foreign-funded) NGOs behind the agitation against uranium mining "were given privileged access, including in the Ministry of Environment". According to them, "The attention given to the Fast Breeder Reactor and Thorium programmes were reduced still further by 2008, when discussions began with international companies about supply of reactors to India". If this had not been done, scientists say that by 2013 at the latest, India may have been able to develop the technology for 1 Gigawatt reactors, thereby creating an export market with a potential for sales of $4 billion initially. This advantage was handed over to China "because of the lack of interest and attention given by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to indigenous nuclear technology". Incidentally, scientists warn that China is now on the cusp of mastering the technology of 2 Gigawatt reactors, while India is now forced to rely on overseas suppliers for 1 Gigawatt (or 1,000 Megawatt) nuclear power plants.

    Now that Narendra Modi is Prime Minister, the scientists are hopeful of a return to the level of interest shown by Indira Gandhi towards the indigenous nuclear programme, in place of Manmohan Singh's policy of relying instead on foreign technology and manufacturers for developing such energy sources. A scientist claimed that in case the Indian private sector too partners the DAE, within the next five years, "India can become one of the top three nuclear power plant exporters globally and the top destination for space launches". He and his colleagues repeated that the Manmohan Singh government's "lack of interest in developing Indian resources and technology was clear from each of the small number of interactions which the PM had with the scientific establishment". Rather than "Make in India", the watchword was "Export to India".

    Alarmingly, the scientists warned that rare earths as well as thorium deposits were being exported out of the country to unknown destinations, and named a clutch of Tamil Nadu-based companies as being the worst offenders. In one such instance, in 2007, a case got registered by the DAE against V.V. Minerals for quarrying and exporting sands rich in precious minerals from Tirunelveli. The company, together with Indian Port Terminals, Kilburn Chemicals and Transworld Garnet (all based in Tamil Nadu), has also been accused of exporting restricted minerals in the guise of sand mining in Tuticorin, Tirunelveli and Kanyakumari. Although reports of such mining multiplied, "the central authorities took no cognizance". Finally, on 6 August 2013, the collector of Thoothukui district warned in writing that certain companies had illegally quarried as much as 239,712 MT of precious minerals from beaches in the state, only to get transferred for his pains. As a consequence, precious minerals such as garnet, rutile, ilmenite and monazite (which contains thorium) continue to get exported as ordinary sand, without any effort by the authorities to prevent such a denuding of India's indigenous stock of rare earths and precious minerals.

    A scientist pointed out that in 2006, the Manmohan Singh government removed rare minerals such as rutile, zircon, garnet and ilmenite from the Atomic Minerals List, thereby giving the precious sand mafias operating in the country carte blanche to take away such minerals for export to unknown destinations. "This decision, which harmed the country's interests significantly, was carried out by the Department of Atomic Energy under pressure from the Prime Minister's Office", a scientist claimed. "Such a decision was in line with others degrading domestic capacities for the benefit of foreign entities", the scientist added.

    It may be mentioned that a single company, V.V. Minerals, controls over 15 kilometres of beach area in three districts of Tamil Nadu, while also having control (through lease deeds) of several thousand acres of land rich in precious minerals.

    Monazite is an important feedstock for thorium, cerium and lanthanum, and scientists say that the casual manner in which its (thinly disguised) export was treated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh "has no parallel anywhere in the world". An intelligence analyst claimed that key executives of companies involved in illicit mining "frequented Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur, and met up with ISI officials there". He claimed that the Pakistan nuclear establishment is building up a stock of thorium for its own research, all of which comes from minerals illegally exported from India. He warned that "ports on both the coasts are riddled with officers acting under the influence of the ISI, which has spent decades cultivating such individuals". Scientists say that there has been a "Decade of Neglect" under Manmohan Singh of the Fast Breeder and Thorium programmes, despite the fact that "when Manmohan Singh took charge as PM in 2004, India was the world leader" in both technologies. The scientists say that the country can "change from a dumping ground for foreign equipment into an exporter of even 1 Gigawatt reactors", once Manmohan Singh's legacy of neglect of domestic capacities in favour of foreign imports gets reversed.
    What a shame !!!! I am itching to call him all kinds of names but will stop at calling him a bastard .

  • #2
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    What a shame !!!! I am itching to call him all kinds of names but will stop at calling him a bastard .
    Hatchet job ?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Hatchet job ?
      The article? Reads like one.

      Does anyone here know enough about this issue to sort out the facts from the assertions?
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
        The article? Reads like one
        That's what i meant.

        Am more interested in understanding how we deal with the future than cry over the past.

        Restore the westminister model and move away from the satrap model where small people in big shoes can influence national policy. Restore the importance of the PM. Things will go much better after.

        Does anyone here know enough about this issue to sort out the facts from the assertions?
        And that is the other problem, it puts the burden of verifying the assertions whether true or not on the reader.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jan 15,, 14:34.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          Hatchet job ?
          I believe this to be true.. I know the reality in ground in Tamil Nadu where the minerals were mined illegally. The national media didn't even pick this issue. I did post a thread about it before.. I am not sure if the estimates are correct but if it is then it is a scam of almost $9.7 TRILLION dollars. Sounds crazy but considering Thorium's importance I wont be surprised if it's the correct estimate. Also I will definitely blame Maunmohan for all that he did. I am genuinely outraged.. I am also kind of mad that the Modi government hasn't even picked this issue.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok, some perspective here. Nothing was sabotaged. The funding stopped. If India was 4 years away from a thorium reactor, she is still four years away. It was not as though she destroyed all her research.

            That being said though, India has been 4 years away from a thorium reactor for some 30 years now. I got the feeling that MS said to the egg heads, enough is enough. We need energy now, not 60 years down the road when we're still 4 years away from a thorium reactor.
            Chimo

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Ok, some perspective here. Nothing was sabotaged. The funding stopped. If India was 4 years away from a thorium reactor, she is still four years away. It was not as though she destroyed all her research.

              That being said though, India has been 4 years away from a thorium reactor for some 30 years now. I got the feeling that MS said to the egg heads, enough is enough. We need energy now, not 60 years down the road when we're still 4 years away from a thorium reactor.
              But Sir, stopping funding is as good as sabotaging the program. You are basically not allowing your scientists to function. It is true that the research can be fast tracked and possibly by before Modi's next election in 2019. Will be a huge success for India as a whole. The previous Congress governments in the last two decade or more never showed intent (apart from Indira and Vajpayee) in nuclear energy. You have capacity to power your nation for a long time with resources available in your country not having to beg other countries for uranium for civilian purposes. Moreover MMS didn't do anything regarding the scam either. The alleged scam amount is mind boggling even to someone who has been seeing countless scams after scams. 2G looks like a kids play compared to this. He didn't do anything !!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by commander View Post
                I believe this to be true.. I know the reality in ground in Tamil Nadu where the minerals were mined illegally. The national media didn't even pick this issue.
                We're talking about the sand mafia, right. It happens in every state, thats how infrastructure gets built.

                Nobody talks about them because they pay their bills ;)

                Make a story about nuclear over this !! what % does this even come under in the big picture.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                  We're talking about the sand mafia, right. It happens in every state, thats how infrastructure gets built.

                  Nobody talks about them because they pay their bills ;)

                  Make a story about nuclear over this !! what % does this even come under in the big picture.
                  They operated in the name of Sand Mafia but in reality they were indulging in a hell lot of things. Check this article and when it was published.


                  http://www.livemint.com/Home-Page/yaiGU5pUBos8QwT8Wall7M/Alternative-Nfuel-mired-in-Sethu-waters.html"]Alternative N-fuel mired in Sethu waters

                  Mumbai: On the black, glittering soil of the Tamil Nadu and Kerala coastlines may lie the answer to India’s nuclear needs. Thorium, an abundant mineral found in these sands and once used in kerosene lamps, represents an alternative fuel for nuclear reactors.

                  But the substance also finds itself the ironic meeting point of two controversies hounding the Union government: the sputtering Indo-US nuclear deal and the plan to dredge Adam’s Bridge, which some believe was built by Hindu god Ram.

                  Thus, scientists have been actively lobbying the government, saying it needs to support efforts to mine thorium to become a self-sufficient nuclear power.

                  India is home to more than a quarter of the world’s thorium, a black mineral found mixed in monazite ore, but about half of these deposits are on the Tamil Nadu coast—close to the site of Adam’s Bridge, a coral walkway between India and Sri Lanka, also known as Ram Sethu. Hindu groups, environmentalists and, now, thorium advocates have protested the Rs2,600 crore plan to dredge the bridge and create a channel to shorten shipping routes.

                  So valuable has India’s thorium become that administrators in the area have to contend with miners smuggling it out of the country.

                  Most nuclear powers use uranium, which is not readily available, but scientists say it can be made with thorium.

                  That view has been at odds with the government’s platform that the stalled treaty with the US represents access to much-needed nuclear technologies and resources. For instance, when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said India needed 100 tonnes of uranium to run its 17 nuclear reactors, scientists responded that India can create its own.
                  “We have the know-how to use thorium to make uranium. We are also mining uranium in Andhra Pradesh and Nagaland. India will have the 100 tonnes of uranium in less than six months,” said P.K. Iyengar, former chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission and a close associate of Homi Bhabha, the father of India’s atomic programme who built the country’s first reactors.

                  Like Bhabha, Iyengar advocates self-reliance as a better nuclear programme. He calls the proposed deal between India and the US, which has faced stiff opposition from the Left parties, a “backhanded way of signing the Non-Proliferation Treaty”. The global treaty limits the spread of nuclear weapons, and only India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea have not ratified it.

                  Within three years, Iyengar pledges, a 500MW nuclear reactor at Kalpakkam in Tamil Nadu should be able to use thorium to breed plutonium and uranium. It cost about Rs3,000 crore to build.

                  As fissile fuels plutonium and uranium split, when bombarded with a neutron, they generate a huge amount of heat and light, which can be used to generate energy and electricity.

                  As India’s economy and consumption grow, nuclear power has been seen as one way to guarantee energy security, especially as oil prices skyrocket. (On Friday, global oil prices soared to a new high, jumping $3.36, or Rs132.72, to $90.46 a barrel.)

                  In fact, nuclear scientists believe thorium breeding can provide nuclear power to fuel India for the next few centuries. This month, former president A.P.J. Abdul Kalam reiterated that India should capitalize on its large thorium reserves. “The thrust should be to be self-reliant in thorium fuel-based reactors,” he said in an email interview. Kalam is a native of Rameswaram, the site of the Adam’s Bridge.

                  And despite optimism over thorium, geologists say the so-called Sethusamudram project could endanger half of India’s thorium deposits, found along the beaches where the channel will be dredged.

                  “Why has no study of ocean currents been done at the site of the Sethusamudram project? You need four things to get this kind of rich, heavy mineral deposit on your beaches: source rocks in the country, rivers to break them down and take the rock pieces to the ocean, the right ocean currents and the perfect deposition belt,” said R.R. Gopala-Krishnan, former director of the Geological Survey of India (GSI).

                  If any of these factors is missing, “we will not be able to hold on to the thorium and titanium in these sands. We need both of these for our nuclear and space programmes... These resources cannot be risked at any cost”, he added.

                  The bridge stops ocean waves from funnelling into the Gulf of Mannar, allowing the deposits to wash ashore, said S. Kalyanaraman, a scientist who runs an independent research centre in Chennai. He has been critical of the dredging, citing religious, economic and environmental factors.

                  “Ocean currents have been depositing minerals on India’s southern coastline because of the Ram Sethu,” he said.

                  These incoming waves rebound in a wide arc around Sri Lanka in a churning motion, and heavy minerals are flung out with the waves and deposited on the southern shores of India, he said. “This makes the Adam’s Bridge strategically important for India,” Kalyanaraman said. “We at least need to study the ocean currents and make sure our resources are not affected.”

                  Not everyone agrees with these fears. At GSI, senior geologist A.C. Dinesh said he did not think the Sethu project would have any impact on the deposits already present on the beaches, but added that he did not know for sure about the future deposits. Dinesh said GSI could experiment to form a conclusion.

                  Meanwhile, government officials continue to insist that the nuclear deal with the US is crucial. “We need to increase our power potential,” said Anil Kakodkar, current chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission and secretary in the department of atomic energy.
                  That could only happen by adding more “power-producing reactors”, he said. “We need uranium.”

                  Thorium-based nuclear reactors have been termed the “holy grail” of nuclear scientists for the last six decades because countries such as Japan, China and France have been unsuccessful in transforming the mathematical formulas involved in the construction and operation of such reactors into reality—or usable nuclear energy. But nuclear scientists at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre in Mumbai say it can be a reality for India.

                  When Bhabha conceived India’s nuclear programme, he drew up three stages. At the first stage were the heavy water reactors. Right now, India has 17 such reactors that use uranium as fuel. Stage 2 involves fast breeder reactors, two of which are in Kalpakkam. One 40MW reactor is operational and another 500MW prototype will start running in 2010. Normally, these reactors use plutonium-uranium mix as fuel in a 70:30 ratio.

                  Iyengar said Indian scientists have worked out a way to use thorium instead of uranium in this mixture that can create new plutonium and uranium.

                  Stage 3 represents the Holy Grail: thorium-based breeder reactors. Here, thorium is used as a fertile fuel blanket to breed fissionable uranium. The fast breeder reactor is a special reactor. While the idea behind the fast breeder is to produce more fissionable material than is consumed, the challenge is to be able to control the chain reaction, said Marko Beljac, an Australian expert on nuclear weapons and co-author of the book, An Illusion of Protection.

                  “No other country in the world has managed to create a prototype to make this kind of reactor so far,” said Sandeep Saxena, a nuclear safety expert at the Nuclear Power Corp. of India.

                  A scientist involved with the designing of the stage 3 prototype said the team secured necessary approvals for stage-three breeders. He requested anonymity.
                  Kalam, often called the brains behind India’s nuclear weapons programme, calls a thorium-based nuclear programme India’s “final goal” and says the reactor should be ready in five-seven years.

                  In an email interview, he said thorium-based nuclear reactors are essential. “The country has got the capability to realize power through thorium-based reactors within five-seven years. We should continue our R&D and ensure that we are self-reliant in nuclear fuel for power generation.”

                  Kalam said India also has the technology to extract thorium from the sand. There are three extraction plants in Kerala and another one is being set up in Orissa. But first they must secure thorium, a process that has grown thornier as its value and properties become more apparent.

                  Critics of the Adam’s Bridge dredging say that it will convert the historical waters between India and Sri Lanka into international waters, hence harder to monitor.

                  Apart from the immediate security implications like monitoring terrorist activities and refugees in the gulf, locals say they are concerned about the safety of the thorium.

                  Earlier this year, geology and mining officers in Kanyakumari apprehended six vehicles full of sand boxes. A sand analysis revealed that the boxes, which belong to South India’s biggest mineral company, VV Minerals, were full of sand containing thorium. As a prescribed mineral under the Atomic Energy Act, 1962, it is a punishable offence to handle it. A case was filed against VV Minerals in the Madurai bench of the Madras high court.

                  The next hearing is scheduled for 13 November. Calls to VV Minerals for comment remained unanswered.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    We're talking about the sand mafia, right. It happens in every state, thats how infrastructure gets built.

                    Nobody talks about them because they pay their bills ;)

                    Make a story about nuclear over this !! what % does this even come under in the big picture.
                    They operated in the name of Sand Mafia but in reality they were indulging in a hell lot of things. Check this article and when it was published.


                    Alternative N-fuel mired in Sethu waters

                    Mumbai: On the black, glittering soil of the Tamil Nadu and Kerala coastlines may lie the answer to India’s nuclear needs. Thorium, an abundant mineral found in these sands and once used in kerosene lamps, represents an alternative fuel for nuclear reactors.

                    But the substance also finds itself the ironic meeting point of two controversies hounding the Union government: the sputtering Indo-US nuclear deal and the plan to dredge Adam’s Bridge, which some believe was built by Hindu god Ram.

                    Thus, scientists have been actively lobbying the government, saying it needs to support efforts to mine thorium to become a self-sufficient nuclear power.

                    India is home to more than a quarter of the world’s thorium, a black mineral found mixed in monazite ore, but about half of these deposits are on the Tamil Nadu coast—close to the site of Adam’s Bridge, a coral walkway between India and Sri Lanka, also known as Ram Sethu. Hindu groups, environmentalists and, now, thorium advocates have protested the Rs2,600 crore plan to dredge the bridge and create a channel to shorten shipping routes.

                    So valuable has India’s thorium become that administrators in the area have to contend with miners smuggling it out of the country.

                    Most nuclear powers use uranium, which is not readily available, but scientists say it can be made with thorium.

                    That view has been at odds with the government’s platform that the stalled treaty with the US represents access to much-needed nuclear technologies and resources. For instance, when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said India needed 100 tonnes of uranium to run its 17 nuclear reactors, scientists responded that India can create its own.
                    “We have the know-how to use thorium to make uranium. We are also mining uranium in Andhra Pradesh and Nagaland. India will have the 100 tonnes of uranium in less than six months,” said P.K. Iyengar, former chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission and a close associate of Homi Bhabha, the father of India’s atomic programme who built the country’s first reactors.

                    Like Bhabha, Iyengar advocates self-reliance as a better nuclear programme. He calls the proposed deal between India and the US, which has faced stiff opposition from the Left parties, a “backhanded way of signing the Non-Proliferation Treaty”. The global treaty limits the spread of nuclear weapons, and only India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea have not ratified it.

                    Within three years, Iyengar pledges, a 500MW nuclear reactor at Kalpakkam in Tamil Nadu should be able to use thorium to breed plutonium and uranium. It cost about Rs3,000 crore to build.

                    As fissile fuels plutonium and uranium split, when bombarded with a neutron, they generate a huge amount of heat and light, which can be used to generate energy and electricity.

                    As India’s economy and consumption grow, nuclear power has been seen as one way to guarantee energy security, especially as oil prices skyrocket. (On Friday, global oil prices soared to a new high, jumping $3.36, or Rs132.72, to $90.46 a barrel.)

                    In fact, nuclear scientists believe thorium breeding can provide nuclear power to fuel India for the next few centuries. This month, former president A.P.J. Abdul Kalam reiterated that India should capitalize on its large thorium reserves. “The thrust should be to be self-reliant in thorium fuel-based reactors,” he said in an email interview. Kalam is a native of Rameswaram, the site of the Adam’s Bridge.

                    And despite optimism over thorium, geologists say the so-called Sethusamudram project could endanger half of India’s thorium deposits, found along the beaches where the channel will be dredged.

                    “Why has no study of ocean currents been done at the site of the Sethusamudram project? You need four things to get this kind of rich, heavy mineral deposit on your beaches: source rocks in the country, rivers to break them down and take the rock pieces to the ocean, the right ocean currents and the perfect deposition belt,” said R.R. Gopala-Krishnan, former director of the Geological Survey of India (GSI).

                    If any of these factors is missing, “we will not be able to hold on to the thorium and titanium in these sands. We need both of these for our nuclear and space programmes... These resources cannot be risked at any cost”, he added.

                    The bridge stops ocean waves from funnelling into the Gulf of Mannar, allowing the deposits to wash ashore, said S. Kalyanaraman, a scientist who runs an independent research centre in Chennai. He has been critical of the dredging, citing religious, economic and environmental factors.

                    “Ocean currents have been depositing minerals on India’s southern coastline because of the Ram Sethu,” he said.

                    These incoming waves rebound in a wide arc around Sri Lanka in a churning motion, and heavy minerals are flung out with the waves and deposited on the southern shores of India, he said. “This makes the Adam’s Bridge strategically important for India,” Kalyanaraman said. “We at least need to study the ocean currents and make sure our resources are not affected.”

                    Not everyone agrees with these fears. At GSI, senior geologist A.C. Dinesh said he did not think the Sethu project would have any impact on the deposits already present on the beaches, but added that he did not know for sure about the future deposits. Dinesh said GSI could experiment to form a conclusion.

                    Meanwhile, government officials continue to insist that the nuclear deal with the US is crucial. “We need to increase our power potential,” said Anil Kakodkar, current chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission and secretary in the department of atomic energy.
                    That could only happen by adding more “power-producing reactors”, he said. “We need uranium.”

                    Thorium-based nuclear reactors have been termed the “holy grail” of nuclear scientists for the last six decades because countries such as Japan, China and France have been unsuccessful in transforming the mathematical formulas involved in the construction and operation of such reactors into reality—or usable nuclear energy. But nuclear scientists at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre in Mumbai say it can be a reality for India.

                    When Bhabha conceived India’s nuclear programme, he drew up three stages. At the first stage were the heavy water reactors. Right now, India has 17 such reactors that use uranium as fuel. Stage 2 involves fast breeder reactors, two of which are in Kalpakkam. One 40MW reactor is operational and another 500MW prototype will start running in 2010. Normally, these reactors use plutonium-uranium mix as fuel in a 70:30 ratio.

                    Iyengar said Indian scientists have worked out a way to use thorium instead of uranium in this mixture that can create new plutonium and uranium.

                    Stage 3 represents the Holy Grail: thorium-based breeder reactors. Here, thorium is used as a fertile fuel blanket to breed fissionable uranium. The fast breeder reactor is a special reactor. While the idea behind the fast breeder is to produce more fissionable material than is consumed, the challenge is to be able to control the chain reaction, said Marko Beljac, an Australian expert on nuclear weapons and co-author of the book, An Illusion of Protection.

                    “No other country in the world has managed to create a prototype to make this kind of reactor so far,” said Sandeep Saxena, a nuclear safety expert at the Nuclear Power Corp. of India.

                    A scientist involved with the designing of the stage 3 prototype said the team secured necessary approvals for stage-three breeders. He requested anonymity.
                    Kalam, often called the brains behind India’s nuclear weapons programme, calls a thorium-based nuclear programme India’s “final goal” and says the reactor should be ready in five-seven years.

                    In an email interview, he said thorium-based nuclear reactors are essential. “The country has got the capability to realize power through thorium-based reactors within five-seven years. We should continue our R&D and ensure that we are self-reliant in nuclear fuel for power generation.”

                    Kalam said India also has the technology to extract thorium from the sand. There are three extraction plants in Kerala and another one is being set up in Orissa. But first they must secure thorium, a process that has grown thornier as its value and properties become more apparent.

                    Critics of the Adam’s Bridge dredging say that it will convert the historical waters between India and Sri Lanka into international waters, hence harder to monitor.

                    Apart from the immediate security implications like monitoring terrorist activities and refugees in the gulf, locals say they are concerned about the safety of the thorium.

                    Earlier this year, geology and mining officers in Kanyakumari apprehended six vehicles full of sand boxes. A sand analysis revealed that the boxes, which belong to South India’s biggest mineral company, VV Minerals, were full of sand containing thorium. As a prescribed mineral under the Atomic Energy Act, 1962, it is a punishable offence to handle it. A case was filed against VV Minerals in the Madurai bench of the Madras high court.

                    The next hearing is scheduled for 13 November. Calls to VV Minerals for comment remained unanswered.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The below is a very recent article , just 2 days ago from one of a prominent Tamil news daily's...used google translate to post here,


                      Mineral sand: the petition calling for a special investigation committee: Federal and state governments Notice

                      By DN, Chennai
                      First Published: 24 January 2015 03:22 AM IST

                      In the coastal districts of Tamil Nadu from the illegal mineral sand beaches, sit-in to demand an investigation into the PIL was filed in the Madras High Court.
                      In response to the petition within four weeks of the Union, the state governments, including viviminarals High Court issued notice to 23 people.
                      Thanjavur district on Friday, pillaiyarpattiyaic filed PIL in the Supreme Court of the jiviktar rajamanikkam Details:
                      In Goa, the National Maritime Institute of Technology, and has worked as a scientist.Currently, Thanjavur work as director of the Center for Disaster Management at the University of Bristol. The first census of the whole of the coast to the city of Kolkata, in which the mineral-rich sand beach examined in six regions.
                      In this study, will be available on the sandy beach area in the state monacait, iluminet, various minerals, such as illegally extracted Rudd revealed massive abuse has taken place. Government officials act in favor of the mineral sand to the pirates.In this case, viviminarals Institute's Benefit esvaikuntarajan monopoly. Illegal activities, irregularities are filled with mines.
                      Therefore, the illegal taking of mineral sand must be investigated by the Special Investigation Team. To order the prosecution of perpetrators of child abuse, as requested in the petition.
                      Chief Justice eskekelal this petition, the judge hearing Friday before the session was primarily comprising ememcuntares.
                      Petition, the judges, in response to the petition within 8 weeks of the Union and state governments, and ordered to send notices to 23 people, including esvaikuntarajan viviminarals partner.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        From people more in the know than any of us

                        What practical issues remain for the adoption of Thorium reactors?

                        I was going to comment on other people's answers, but this was going to become too long.

                        Almost everyone fails to separate Thorium (which is a fuel type) and reactor type. Safety is a function of the reactor type, and molten salt in particular for this question. Does the fuel choice impact ultimate reactor safety? Yes, but to a limited extent. So how does the use of Thorium as a fuel impact the ultimate reactor safety? Here:

                        Thorium basically only has one natural isotope. This reduces the number of heavy element chemical species that must be dealt with in a chemistry system. This makes it more suitable for a molten salt reactor than most fuel cycles, which most people believe is a very safe design.
                        Thorium produces very few neutrons per fission. In fact, it's only like 2.3 when others are closer to 3.0 (but not quite there). Does that impact safety? Maybe. Since there are so few neutrons, any critical configuration has less physical capability to go dangerously supercritical, but I wouldn't emphasize that point too much. The more important factor here is that the scarcity of neutrons makes it hard to make weapons. You need 1 to breed so you're left with 2.3-1 = 1.3 and you only have 0.3 neutrons per fission lose to the environment (or breed extra) and this is difficult to manage. Also, anything that is more neutron-efficient has fewer activation products so is a less radioactive plant. Generally, without extra neutrons those extra neutrons aren't causing trouble.
                        Thorium produces somewhat less dangerous fission products. No matter what nuclear fuel cycle you use you still have to deal with the fission products because they are the direct result of the fission reaction just like CO2 is a direct product of combustion reactions. Thorium is said to have FPs that are a little easier to deal with over long term, but I think the difference is very very marginal. This can improve the safety of the waste.
                        Thorium can be breed at thermal energies. This is such a major point that it is an oversight to not mention. Thorium is unique among the potential fuels in that a thermal reactor can breed new (fissile) fuel in perpetuity. Thermal reactors are smaller, cheaper, easier to deal with, and probably safer. We currently use thermal Uranium-Plutonium reactors that breed at less than breakeven. A Thorium-Uranium reactor can breed at thermal energies at higher than breakeven.

                        Now, Thorium is vastly more sustainable than natural Uranium, we all agree on that. But the problem with nuclear power today is not sustainability of the fuel supply. Your question is why we haven't adopted it as a power source. To start with, we have no economic reason to adopt it. You could ask why we have not adopted the molten salt reactor, for which the answer is a matter of technology evolution. Also, we don't have many breeding reactors in general which is tied to larger issues like reprocessing. Thorium fuel cycles offer their own unique approach to a breeding fuel cycle. But to use Thorium is to use breeding, and we don't do (deliberate) breeding.

                        At the same time that Thorium has advantages, it has disadvantages. The small number of neutrons per fission is a drawback for the design of the reactor. The company Terrapower proposes to make a candle-type reactor with U-238. You could not do this with Thorium because it doesn't have enough neutrons. The design isn't neutron-efficient enough. A molten salt rector (MSR), on the other hand, is one of the most neutron-efficient designs we've ever contemplated. Obviously it matches well with Thorium. U-238 could be used in a MSR as well, but Thorium could not be used in a Terrapower design.

                        To summarize my opinion, there is a strong argument for Thorium based on sustainability, there is a weak argument for Thorium based on the waste, and there is really no argument for Thorium based on economics. Current designs are based on economics. QED.
                        Basically, while the knowledge and the fundamentals are there to make this work, the experience is not. There are no viable commercial Thorium reactor designs and you will have to at least spend 10 years, over a billion dollars to build one, and spend another 20 years getting to know the nooks and crannies out of it. Basically, there would be no thorium reactor that can come on line that would even meet the bare IAEA minimum safety requirements for the next 30 years.

                        India can build a thorium reactor tomorrow but can she full it at full power and then shut it down with current safety demands? No.
                        Chimo

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                        • #13
                          No politician with an iq of even a 10 year old will try to do something like that. shameful that someone as rational and brilliant as Doctor Saab is being accused of such stupid actions.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kuku View Post
                            No politician with an iq of even a 10 year old will try to do something like that. shameful that someone as rational and brilliant as Doctor Saab is being accused of such stupid actions.
                            That article may be outlandish and almost certainly inaccurate, but please, oh please spare us from the hagiography of that walking disaster who, despite apparently being an economist, ran the economy into the ground and watched in silence as his colleagues looted the country. His only real "achievement" is that his tenure served to damage the reputation of his party enough so that the people finally gave them the thrashing they deserved at the ballot box.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Basically, while the knowledge and the fundamentals are there to make this work, the experience is not. There are no viable commercial Thorium reactor designs and you will have to at least spend 10 years, over a billion dollars to build one, and spend another 20 years getting to know the nooks and crannies out of it. Basically, there would be no thorium reactor that can come on line that would even meet the bare IAEA minimum safety requirements for the next 30 years.

                              India can build a thorium reactor tomorrow but can she full it at full power and then shut it down with current safety demands? No.
                              I suspected the truth was a bit closer to this. The article in the OP seemed to be stacking assumptions on assumptions. Thorium may well be a worthwhile investment in the long term, but I suspect the issue facing any Indian government is the here & now. Is the money that is going to be spent on this over the next few decades going to achieve more in that way, or more being invested in power generation in the present?

                              I also suspect that if Thorium reactors are viable they will get developed with or without India.
                              sigpic

                              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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