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Thread: Stalin killed Netaji, Subramanian Swamy says

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    During that time, in his shoes, I'd probably be the same.
    Actually, during that time, more Indians sided against him than with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    And BF, shit happens during war.
    Yes, he lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    And whatever Bose was, that lil' fcuk Stalin didn't have any right to execute him, if that's true. Not without no reason, why I despise the Russians. Those Shylock, they always make sure they took more than a pound of flesh.
    Here's a guy who sided with Hitler and Hirohito and you're talking about rights? Monsters don't understand anything about rights. They only understand power. If anything, Bose chosed the smallest of the three monsters and you are surprised when the biggest monster alledgedly squashed him?
    Chimo

  2. #17
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Stalin dies in March 53, so it could be true. It probably isn't. It sounds highly questionable. Can't work out why a guy who allied himself with the Nazis & Japanese would think Uncle Joe would protect him. Kudos to Stalin if it is true.
    Yeah, save your kudos for the Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and Finns

  3. #18
    Contributor cataphract's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Actually, during that time, more Indians sided against him than with him.
    And yet the same Indians supported him afterwards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_mutiny


    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Here's a guy who sided with Hitler and Hirohito and you're talking about rights? Monsters don't understand anything about rights. They only understand power. If anything, Bose chosed the smallest of the three monsters and you are surprised when the biggest monster alledgedly squashed him?
    Bose was willing to side with anyone willing to give him arms and money against the British. He did approach the Soviets first but they turned him down, after which he tried the Nazis.
    Last edited by cataphract; 11 Jan 15, at 23:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    By that logic, everyone in the Japanese army should have been killed after they were captured.
    They were.
    Chimo

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    And yet the same Indians supported him afterwards: Royal Indian Navy mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    He was dead by then. He didn't have to live up to the image.

    Quote Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
    Bose was willing to side with anyone willing to give him arms and money against the British. He did approach the Soviets first but they turned him down, after which he tried the Nazis.
    None of them did. The Japanese only gave him captured stock.
    Chimo

  6. #21
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I just posted the article. Why beat me? The least we're related to is dry fish and Ilish.
    Not you, I am rhetorically beating up that idiot Swamy.

    Also, I hate Shukti (dry fish) and am indifferent about ilish (but not ilish eggs, yumm)
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They were.
    All Japanese POWs were executed in cold blood? Where they suffocated or hanged?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    All Japanese POWs were executed in cold blood? Where they suffocated or hanged?
    Their surrender was not accepted. Mercy was neither asked nor given.
    Chimo

  9. #24
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Actually, during that time, more Indians sided against him than with him.
    You probably mean the Indian soldiers serving in WWII. I am not sure the Indian public thought of him the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Yes, he lost.
    Sir, I am not discounting anything. All I have said is those were times during a war, even if personally I ain't his fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Here's a guy who sided with Hitler and Hirohito and you're talking about rights? Monsters don't understand anything about rights. They only understand power. If anything, Bose chosed the smallest of the three monsters and you are surprised when the biggest monster alledgedly squashed him?
    I had a chance to take a swipe at the Russians, I used Bose and the op-ed for that. Not a fan of either Bose or Russia.

    What you know and things I have learnt here w.r.t Bose would remain with us, History in India teaches Bose differently. I once tried to argue Bose with a BJP fanboi on FB, I was surrounded and stoned.
    Last edited by Oracle; 12 Jan 15, at 04:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Actually, during that time, more Indians sided against him than with him.
    I think most of the recruits to join the British India Army would have been motivated economically rather than ideologically. Between the West Bengal famine, and the state of money supply/inflation in India at the start of the war to the end of the war, I find it hard to believe that the majority signed up for any reason but being a matter of economic life and death.

    http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bi...hapter%203.pdf

    3.6.2 Wartime inflation (1939-1945):
    During the war period India suffered a greater magnitude of
    inflation in comparison with other non-devastated countries. The
    severity of inflation varied across the war hit countries, but it was the
    people living near the subsistence, who suffered a lot every where.
    During the early years of war, price increases were fairly moderate, but
    a sharp rise took place in 1942 and 1943. From the end of 1943 to the
    end of 1945, prices were relatively stable at a very high level, but in
    1946 there was again a marked increase14 as can be seen from the table
    No. 3.5.
    The general index of wholesale prices, which was 100 on August
    25, 1939, the eve of World War II, went up to 254 at the end of March
    1946, representing a rise of 154% during the war period. It is also true
    that the official index underestimated the extent of the price rise as
    limited success was achieved in administering the price controls.
    Consequently, the prices used for the compilation of the index did not
    fully reflect the true level of prices which had to be paid.15
    This period contained an inflationary price spiral of serious
    proportions, spanning over three consecutive years of 1941-42, 1942-
    43 and 1943-44. Prices rose at an alarming rate during these three years
    with respective inflation rates of 19.3%, 24.8 and 38.3%
    . At no other
    time in the known history of India, prices rose at such an alarming
    rates for three consecutive years.
    To further build on this, out of the 50,000 Indian POWs captured throughout the war, a large portion (estimates put it at around 30,000) did join Bose' INA. Quite a significant ratio to indicate that there was no major ideological component to enlisting under the British India army. I do acknowledge that these defections would have occurred under duress.

    However, this ratio is contrasted with say, the amount of Vlasovites or "HiWis" that served under the Germans, (this blog estimates the number from anywhere between 200,000 to 1,000,000) out of a total of 5.7 million Soviet prisoners of war. It can be said that German treatment of Soviet POWs mirrored that of Japanese POW camps.

    Nevertheless, in reading about this topic I chanced upon a fantastic article by the Australian War Museum

    Journal of the Australian War Memorial | Australian War Memorial

    Indian troops captured in Singapore were immediately separated from their European officers and exposed to INA propaganda. Those who refused to join the INA – perhaps a quarter of the total – were held in Malaya and Singapore and treated as harshly as any other prisoners of the Japanese. Lacking administrative, medical or engineer officers accustomed to taking responsibility for large numbers of troops, perhaps they suffered more severely. The picture is unclear, such little work having been done on the subject. Early in May 1943, the Japanese in Singapore formed "Indian Working Parties" from Indian soldiers who had resisted Japanese appeals to join the INA. The largest group of Indian prisoners assembled in South-East Asia after Singapore appears to have been the 5,000 sent to Rabaul in New Britain. Their experience awaits a more detailed investigation. The second largest group of Indian prisoners of war was sent to Wewak, in north-western Australian New Guinea, the destination of about 3,000 men.10

    ....

    {9} Six companies of Indians went to Wewak in New Guinea and nine to Rabaul. Their experience suggests both the ordeal of their captivity and its legal and ethical ambiguities. According to Jemadar Chint Singh, a key witness in the story of Indians in New Guinea, the Indians were at first accommodated in a swamp about eight kilometres from Wewak Point, between the sea and a creek.11 The campsite was selected by Colonel Takano, the commander of the six Wewak working parties. Prisoners were compelled to build their own "totally inadequate" huts, hastily erecting them using grass offering little protection from heavy rain. Chint Singh recalled how the camp flooded and "we usually slept in water". Because no effective sanitary facilities could be constructed in the waterlogged camp the sick rate increased. The few Indian medical officers in the working parties had no medical equipment and were obliged to labour at the harbour unloading ships as part of work details. Colonel Takano repeatedly called for the prisoners to work harder, beating men whom he thought were working too slowly. On one occasion recalled by Chint Singh, he beat three men with a thick wooden stick, shouting "Why are you working so slowly?", though the men, who were suffering from beri beri, could not understand him. Despite this ill-treatment the Wewak prisoners are unique among prisoners of the Japanese because they mounted at least three protests against the conditions of their captivity: a petition, a hunger strike, and what Japanese witnesses described as an "uprising"

    ....

    Chint Singh's account is corroborated by other Indian prisoners in other parties. Naik Aziz Ahmed of the 1st Anti-Aircraft Regiment of the Hong Kong and Singapore Royal Artillery recalled that throughout the two-month voyage from Singapore to Rabaul prisoners were "subjected to anti-British propaganda in an effort to suborn them".18 The prisoners refused to co-operate, even refusing to accept Japanese puttees in place of their own ragged clothes lest they be regarded as "favourable to Japanese military effort".19 The coercion continued after their arrival in New Britain of another party. The entire party was paraded and ordered to opt for the pro-Japanese force. "The whole parade refused", Havildar Rozi Khan recalled. Japanese soldiers then began beating Captain Sadiq Ali of the Madras Regiment.20 Captain Ali called out to his men "it is better to die than serve the Japs!" In response, Japanese soldiers seized Lance Naik Rehmat Ali (apparently at random), placed him by a trench and laid the blade of a sword on his bare neck as if to behead him. Then a gun was pointed at his chest and the trigger was pulled – the gun was unloaded. None of the detachment agreed to serve the Japanese but insisted on remaining prisoners of war.21 Soon after arriving in New Britain in 1943 another party was ordered to learn Japanese drill. When its members refused to comply men were beaten unconscious and left lying in the sun. Men who tried to help them were beaten.22 According to many other Indian participants all Indians in New Guinea refused Japanese appeals. Their obduracy meant that they "would be treated as traitors and the treatment you are receiving at present will continue".23 Of those who reached New Guinea, virtually all the Wewak detachments resisted Japanese appeals, while some at least of the New Britain became, in contemporary terminology, "white" INA members, joining under duress.

    AWM 098229
    Freed Indian prisoners at Karavia Nay, New Britain, act out an account of their daily treatment by the Japanese in October 1945.
    AWM 098229

    {18} There is, in addition, a chronological argument against the enlistment of Indian prisoners in New Guinea being active INA members. As a result of friction between Mohan Singh and the Japanese command in Malaya, the INA was dissolved in December 1942. Most of its members were returned to prison camps. After the arrival of Subhas Chandra Bose in Singapore in July 1943 the force was revived, and it was members of this "second" INA that fought in Burma. The point is, though, that when the detachments sailed from Singapore to New Guinea in May 1943, the INA was in abeyance.24

    {19} Though the conflicting Japanese evidence will always leave the matter open to question, it would appear that the Indians transported to the South-West Pacific were mainly those who had refused to collaborate with the Japanese or to join the INA. When, in 1945, No.4 Contact Team of the Indian Army Mission of the RAPWI (Repatriation of Allied Prisoners of War and Internees) organisation processed liberated Indians, its tasks included the identification and isolation of INA members. It appears that no Indian Army personnel from New Guinea were held for investigation or trial as members of the INA.25 The term "JIF" (Japanese Indian Forces) so common in the South East Asia Command, where the Fourteenth Army faced an INA division, is nowhere seen in the Australian records. The only evidence of collaboration comes from Japanese sources, all (it seems) oral rather than documentary. Certainly, the testimony of liberated prisoners from various places interrogated by different officers at different times disclosed no hint that the New Guinea Indians had agreed to become "sub-soldiers" of the Japanese. John Crasta's memoir makes clear that when Indian prisoners at Sourabaya were asked to exchange their ragged uniforms for Dutch colonial uniforms they accepted only tunics, "since they suspected that the Japanese were trying to enlist us

    {22} John Crasta's memoir suggests that these instructions were not necessarily honoured. While he describes how "Australian soldiers would mingle freely and dine with us, disregarding all codes of etiquette", he also mentions that British RAPWI officers at Rabaul – probably suspecting the presence of INA sympathisers among the liberated prisoners – took a less accommodating approach. Despite the evident hardships the prisoners had endured, the British insisted on the men building their own huts (as they had under the Japanese), denied them the initial payment, and ensured that they were "deprived of most of the concessions and amenities offered by the Australian staff".29
    The irony being that the Indians that did not join the INA and remain loyal to the British India Army were subject to institutionalized racism.

    The rest of the article goes to discuss in depth the exemplary character and conduct of Indian POWs and their positive interaction with Australian troops.

    On the subject of Bose, he strikes me as an impatient nationalist who had to take any help he could get in gaining independence for his country. Contrary to what is implied, I don't think that he ever was in any doubts over the commitment of Japanese to Indian independence (their actions in the occupation of the Andamans speak for themselves, when the Japanese Navy did not transfer authority to INA members or the Azad Hind provisional Government, as do their various atrocities committed to "fellow Asians" that repudiated the pan-Asian propaganda being pumped out). Obviously Japan and Germany had a similar idea, with all three movements seeking to use each other to undermine British influence in the region, with different "end-goals"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Stalin dies in March 53, so it could be true. It probably isn't. It sounds highly questionable. Can't work out why a guy who allied himself with the Nazis & Japanese would think Uncle Joe would protect him. Kudos to Stalin if it is true.
    Distasteful comment which completely ignores the context of his actions. Bose was struggling against centuries of illegal occupation and colonialism, actions of which were far more direct and offensive to the Indian people over generations than two distants war in Europe - which Indians nevertheless fought in. Britain would prove itself during the course of the 2nd world war in its actions towards the Indian people ( given Churchills stated position on the West Bengal famine, and his attempts to limit food relief to reach the region) as being no different than certain European powers in their attitude towards certain Europeans and Slavic peoples.

    There's also the mistake of judging actions committed in the past by contemporary standards. An anti-colonial struggle is a legitimate cause, and for the people affected, do you expect them to place the priorities or sensibilities of Western peoples over that of Indians? Bose placed Indians before Europeans, what a terrible human being! That he received (very limited) assistance and aid for Nazi Germany does not diminish or tarnish the cause he struggled for nor make him a person whos imprisonment in a theoretical gulag should be viewed with glee.

    Am I to expect the same degree of condemnation towards Chiang Kai Shek for being on the receiving end of modernization efforts from Nazi Germany? The attempt to somehow marginalize an independence struggle and liberation movement just because it was supported by Nazis or Imperial Japan is taking the moral narrative of WW2 to hysterical conclusions, as if somehow because those two nations supported the Indian independence movement, said movement and Bose are instantly on the same level as those nations. If anything, it highlights the hypocritical moral narrative applied over WW2 that somehow magically exonerates members of the Western allies from their continued (at the time) colonial crimes
    Last edited by Bridgeburner_; 12 Jan 15, at 07:05.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgeburner_ View Post
    I think most of the recruits to join the British India Army would have been motivated economically rather than ideologically. Between the West Bengal famine, and the state of money supply/inflation in India at the start of the war to the end of the war, I find it hard to believe that the majority signed up for any reason but being a matter of economic life and death.
    How about pure blind hatre of the Japanese? There is no question that Indians were mercenaries for the European War but that does not explain the ferorcity in which they fought the Japanese in Burma. Mercy was neither given nor asked between the IJA and the BIA.

    Accounts of Japanese attrocities certainly reached back to India, detailing how ethnic Indians were treated in Burma and elsewhere; even under "Indian Independence League" rule.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    How about pure blind hatre of the Japanese? There is no question that Indians were mercenaries for the European War but that does not explain the ferorcity in which they fought the Japanese in Burma. Mercy was neither given nor asked between the IJA and the BIA.
    I will have to admit to having almost zero knowledge of the performance of Indian troops in the Burmese campaigns under Gen.Slim, so I really don't know what could have provided the motivation, not to demean the actions of those soldiers, but could the Japanese treatment of POWs be in part responsible for this ferocity?

    Accounts of Japanese attrocities certainly reached back to India, detailing how ethnic Indians were treated in Burma and elsewhere; even under "Indian Independence League" rule.
    Right, but most the victims of Japanese war crimes of ethnic Indian origin were soldiers. The only area I believe was actually occupied by Japanese soldiers where ethnic Indian civilians existed was the Andaman & Nicobar islands, whos residents were the victims of Japanese war crimes. I believe some 2000 in total perished.

    Side by side at the time, for the domestic prospective Indian recruit, the "Quit India" movement began in 1942 - where the majority of organic, indigenous Indian political activity seemed to stoking anti-British sentiment. Post 1943,the W.Bengal famine would have also made its presence felt. Both these things in my opinion would have probably made serving in the British India Army not particularly "noble" in the eyes of the Indian public at the time, as the only organization I can gather that openly supported the Raj in wartime was the All-India Muslim League.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgeburner_ View Post
    Right, but most the victims of Japanese war crimes of ethnic Indian origin were soldiers. The only area I believe was actually occupied by Japanese soldiers where ethnic Indian civilians existed was the Andaman & Nicobar islands, whos residents were the victims of Japanese war crimes. I believe some 2000 in total perished. .
    I'll get to the rest later, but this isn't strictly correct. Tens of thousands of Tamil labourers from Malaysia died working on the Thai-Burma Railway. That is where my uncle spent some of the war. Most had been forced to work there in unimaginable conditions. Sadly their story has never really been told.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They were.
    No, they were not. Emperor Hirohito was free, their main leader.
    Potsdam Conference:
    ....
    that "[t]he Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives."
    ....
    Clearly stated that they were able to return to their homes. And no clause about the emperor in the conference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgeburner_ View Post
    I will have to admit to having almost zero knowledge of the performance of Indian troops in the Burmese campaigns under Gen.Slim,
    NYT - A Largely Indian Victory in World War II, Mostly Forgotten in India

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgeburner_ View Post
    so I really don't know what could have provided the motivation, not to demean the actions of those soldiers, but could the Japanese treatment of POWs be in part responsible for this ferocity?
    Whatever the motivation, money could not explain the butchery the IJA sufferred, especially when German and Italian armies did not suffer the same fates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgeburner_ View Post
    Right, but most the victims of Japanese war crimes of ethnic Indian origin were soldiers. The only area I believe was actually occupied by Japanese soldiers where ethnic Indian civilians existed was the Andaman & Nicobar islands, whos residents were the victims of Japanese war crimes. I believe some 2000 in total perished.
    BF answered you but a more personal ancedote.

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/int...tml#post976569

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgeburner_ View Post
    Side by side at the time, for the domestic prospective Indian recruit, the "Quit India" movement began in 1942 - where the majority of organic, indigenous Indian political activity seemed to stoking anti-British sentiment. Post 1943,the W.Bengal famine would have also made its presence felt. Both these things in my opinion would have probably made serving in the British India Army not particularly "noble" in the eyes of the Indian public at the time, as the only organization I can gather that openly supported the Raj in wartime was the All-India Muslim League.
    The Quit India movement was not an anti-war movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by popillol View Post
    No, they were not. Emperor Hirohito was free, their main leader.
    Potsdam Conference:
    ....
    that "[t]he Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives."
    ....
    Clearly stated that they were able to return to their homes. And no clause about the emperor in the conference.
    Did you missed the part about "Their surrender was not accepted. Mercy was neither asked nor given?"
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 12 Jan 15, at 13:03.
    Chimo

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