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Thread: US Army rejects the M9A3, to replace the M9

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    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    US Army rejects the M9A3, to replace the M9

    It looks like the Army does not want anymore Beretta's after the current orders are filled. Big Green, apparently wants a new design.

    Beretta, offered the M9A3 a revised M9, (1) with a straight backstrap, for those with smaller hands, (with an optional grip to replicate the M9 feel- for those with larger hands) (2) a tan slide- (2) with a revised slide mounted safety (that is said to reduce accidental safety application), (4) threaded barrel - for sound suppressors, (4) enlarged magazine release button, (5) accessory rail for lights or lasers and reportedly (6) a more flared magazine well.

    Army Rejects M9A3 Proposal, Opts for New Pistol | Military.com

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    Competition in the 9mm semi-autos have exploded. Too many other good options out there to not do a competition.

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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Still think they outta go back to the ole M1911A1 . . . . SpecOps still uses them.
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Glock now builds pistols in the USA, so I believe that the Glock and S&W M&P are the leaders in the future competition. Also expect pistols from Sig Sauer, FN and H&K to be submitted. I doubt if any other maker's pistols would have much of a chance. I believe a plastic framed pistol will be adopted if this is indeed a serious bid for a new pistol.
    1911 type pistols are only for specialists these days, not the average grunt.
    Last edited by surfgun; 10 Jan 15, at 00:53.

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    Glock also has a reputation for selling Glocks at cheaper than dirt prices to local PDs. $300 or something per gun IIRC according to people who claim to be in the know.

    I would think, though, that the M&P's ergo will be more broadly acceptable for people than the Glocks. You've also got the HK VP9, Sig 320. Sadly, my beloved PPQ will probably not be in the running.

    For the Army I expect a manual safety will be mandatory. I agree with Surfgun on the .45 cal. Is switching to .40 cal an option though? Also, is the Army allowed to use hollowpoint rounds?

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    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Reportedly a caliber change has not been mandated, but somewhat encouraged. Hollowpoints are not an option. A SWCFMJ is the best that can be hopped for, to cause a more damaging wound channel than ball ammo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Reportedly a caliber change has not been mandated, but somewhat encouraged. Hollowpoints are not an option. A SWCFMJ is the best that can be hopped for, to cause a more damaging wound channel than ball ammo.
    How does a SWCFMJ actually cause more damage if it doesn't expand? Does it tumble?

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    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    A ball round actually punches a hole smaller than its full diameter, since the bullet does not have a sharp shoulder like an SWC. The shoulder cuts the wound to the full diameter of the bullet, leaving a much more impressive permanent wound channel. Elmer Keith was a huge advocate for the SWC type bullet, he even designed his own version (that is referred to as the Keith style SWC).
    Last edited by surfgun; 10 Jan 15, at 03:30.

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    1911s are a joy to shoot, but they are NOT the gun I'd want on my hip in a combat situation. A 7 round single stack magazine is unacceptable, as is the maintenance a 1911 requires compared to a modern designs.

    The most logical choice is almost certainly the 4th gen 9mm Glock. It is lightweight, high capacity, inexpensive, reliable, easy to maintain, highly modular with a large existing market, and thoroughly proven in real life usage.

    That being said, they are ugly and the military seems to have a raging hard-on for external safeties, so who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    1911s are a joy to shoot, but they are NOT the gun I'd want on my hip in a combat situation. A 7 round single stack magazine is unacceptable, as is the maintenance a 1911 requires compared to a modern designs.

    The most logical choice is almost certainly the 4th gen 9mm Glock. It is lightweight, high capacity, inexpensive, reliable, easy to maintain, highly modular with a large existing market, and thoroughly proven in real life usage.

    That being said, they are ugly and the military seems to have a raging hard-on for external safeties, so who knows.
    I know Glocks are great, but my hands hate them. With Glocks, the ergos are at least as divisive as the looks. Something like the M&P might prove a lot less so.

    On the other hand, no arguing with how they function and the cost reductions coming from the large economies of scale.

    Really, though, any of the major plastic semiautos today are going to be pretty good for functionality and reliability. If I were the Army I'd be looking to drive some hard bargains for any of these guns due to the positive effects of a military buy on marketing to civilians and police.

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    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    I know Glocks are great, but my hands hate them. With Glocks, the ergos are at least as divisive as the looks. Something like the M&P might prove a lot less so.

    On the other hand, no arguing with how they function and the cost reductions coming from the large economies of scale.
    When your talking about large scale, personal issue defence contracts ergonomics aren't really an issue. Within reasonable limits soldiers adapt to the equipment they are issued with and personal preference has little to do with it. Training and hours on the range are what counts. The Brits and several other armed forces have adopted the Glock as their standard issue side arm, not to mention scores if not hundreds of Police Forces. I'm not arguing that the Glock is the best choice by the way, just that 'personal choice' isn't a real issue for Government employees.

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    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    1911s are a joy to shoot, but they are NOT the gun I'd want on my hip in a combat situation. A 7 round single stack magazine is unacceptable, as is the maintenance a 1911 requires compared to a modern designs.

    The most logical choice is almost certainly the 4th gen 9mm Glock. It is lightweight, high capacity, inexpensive, reliable, easy to maintain, highly modular with a large existing market, and thoroughly proven in real life usage.

    That being said, they are ugly and the military seems to have a raging hard-on for external safeties, so who knows.
    And the glock holds like a 2x2

    If you want all of these things, (lightweight, high capacity etc.) an M&P would od the job just fine
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    When your talking about large scale, personal issue defence contracts ergonomics aren't really an issue. Within reasonable limits soldiers adapt to the equipment they are issued with and personal preference has little to do with it. Training and hours on the range are what counts. The Brits and several other armed forces have adopted the Glock as their standard issue side arm, not to mention scores if not hundreds of Police Forces. I'm not arguing that the Glock is the best choice by the way, just that 'personal choice' isn't a real issue for Government employees.
    After Iraq and Afghanistan the US military seems to have really gotten the gospel w.r.t. ergonomics. You've got every soldier kitting out their M4s and other primary weapons with all manners of sights, grips, etc. Seems to me no reason this trend won't affect this competition.

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    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    And the glock holds like a 2x2

    If you want all of these things, (lightweight, high capacity etc.) an M&P would od the job just fine
    When it comes down to personal preference I'd go with the CZ-75. If I was in charge of ordering for the Army however, I would probably hold a competition between the Glock 19, S&W M&P, and Sig P226.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    When it comes down to personal preference I'd go with the CZ-75. If I was in charge of ordering for the Army however, I would probably hold a competition between the Glock 19, S&W M&P, and Sig P226.
    Yep agree those are the prime suspects. There's also the "new" kid on the block, the HK VP9. Well timed for this competition.

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