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Thread: Terror Attacks in Paris : 17 killed, Terrorists dead

  1. #196
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Charlie Hebdo had the rights to publish their cartoons (offensive to many, shocking to most, distasteful and sucky artwok to me) but why would this joker not have the rights for his "comedy".
    I agree on the magazine - basically 4th grader level talent in art and humor.

    I wonder if world leaders will march for his right to free speech?
    Arresting Dieudonné for “defending terrorism” is exactly what he wants
    Jake Flanagin
    an hour ago
    Arresting Dieudonné for
    Members of the Zaka emergency response team pray beside the coffins of four victims of an attack at a kosher supermarket in Paris.(Reuters/Zaka/Handout)

    “Je me sens Charlie Coulibaly.” Translation: “I feel like Charlie Coulibaly.” Infamous French comedian Dieudonné M’bala M’bala wrote these words in a puzzling Facebook post published (and since deleted) in the wake of massacres at the offices of satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo and a kosher supermarket in the Parisian suburbs. (Amédy Coulibaly being the gunman who prosecutors say killed four hostages held in the market.)

    It was offensive as it was unfunny and bizarre. Such is Dieudonné’s comedic MO. A one-time liberal, the French comic is now known for his vocal anti-Semitism, which he dresses up in a political costume of disestablishmentarianism and human-rights advocacy. Perhaps you remember him from last year’s media flurry surrounding la quenelle, a kind of reverse Nazi salute moronically adopted by a few smugly undereducated teens and footballers.

    In fact, the funniest thing about Dieudonné is the swirling mass of contradictions he embodies. He is arguably most popular in the Parisian banlieues, suburban ghettos largely populated by African and Middle Eastern communities — “places where anti-Semitism is fed by secondhand Palestinian politics, Islamism, and alienation from French society,” as Tom Reiss wrote in a 2007 profile of the comic. And yet, he frequently pals around with members of the notorious Le Pen family, dynastic leaders of the National Front, a far-right French political party cemented to a platform of xenophobic (read: Islamophobic, anti-Arab) politics.

    Nevertheless, this one of many weird, sophomoric social-media missives landed Dieudonné in hot water on Monday. French officials have opened an investigation, and placed the comic under arrest on charges of of “defending terrorism.” It was a move that perplexed The Intercept’s Glenn Greenwald, who wrote in an essay published Wednesday, “Expressing [his] opinion is evidently a crime in the Republic of Liberté, which prides itself on a line of 20th century intellectuals — from Sartre and Genet to Foucault and Derrida — whose hallmark was leaving no orthodoxy or convention unmolested, no matter how sacred.”

    Arresting Dieudonné, who has previously faced criminal prosecution for his provocative views, and has been correspondingly banned from entering the United Kingdom, demonstrates “the sham of the West’s ‘free speech’ celebration,” Greenwald wrote. And this is precisely what people like Dieudonné want.

    Though the comic was probably surprised such a listless remark would put him back in the courtroom, he is undoubtedly overjoyed that it has. Dieudonné has built his career on exploiting the disenfranchisement of France’s immigrant communities, converting their (often righteous) anger and alienation into irrational anti-Semitism. Putting him under arrest for expressing his anti-Semitic views only lends credence to this carefully cultivated image of the banlieue folk-hero courageously nipping at the heels of a “worldwide Zionist establishment.” Arresting Dieudonné gives him an excuse to engage full political-martyr mode. It feeds his insatiable ego, as evidenced by the deplorable birth of #JeSuisDieudonné. It sets him up as a genuine, and perhaps sympathetic, political agitator.

    Placing Dieudonné behind bars, even for a short period of time, legitimizes him as someone whose politics might, to some, be worthy of acknowledgement. When, in reality, they are little more than the ill-contrived ravings of another attention-seeking, Holocaust-denying, conspiracy-theorist wackjob — a geopolitical fantasist who probably thinks the world is run by lizard-people disguised as Rothschilds. That, or more likely, a monstrous cynic exploiting Muslim-Jewish animosity to bolster his own notoriety. After all, Dieudonné got his start as a performer on stage. It’s only a small stretch to say he probably never left it.

    The political theater of people like Dieudonné is inherently beside the point. Greenwald is right, at the core of the controversy is the hypocritical stance of Western governments on free speech: “it’s free speech if it involves ideas I like or attacks groups I dislike, but it’s something different when I’m the one who is offended.” And the system such ideological codifications create is one where people like Dieudonné thrive. There is no place for Dieudonné in a society that allows puerile anti-whateverisms to fizzle into nothingness. And he knows this.

    So perhaps, let’s shift the paradigm. Let’s altogether do away with the dichotomy of actively protecting versus selectively condemning hate speech. Let each instance of shallow, self-serving stagecraft flame out, as they inevitably do. Chances are dolts like Dieudonné will be too wrapped up in such fallacies to not disappear along with them. These fame-seekers are not built for longevity.

    Follow Jake on Twitter @jakeflanagin. We welcome your comments at ideas@qz.com.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  2. #197
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Nope,bro,it's no excuse.You can express whatever you want.But as long as you can't even write ****** on a forum,you don't have freedom of speech.As long as you have laws punishing such speech,you don't have freedom of speech.
    I should have pointed this out earlier when you said it was not complete freedom of speech.
    Whatever France has is more than what i got and i think France should hold on to it

    Can't sell Nazi memorbilia on ebay.fr/de/at but no problem with uk or .com.This is what happens when you have to fight wars on your own land, the US did not so they can get away with more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    There is no law that says you can't show the prophet bare butt.And I'll oppose such a law,even if I doubt Western governments will give a damn about my opinion.The point is that people willing to kill for insulting islam exist and there aren't few.It's a fact and you can't change it right now.So as a private citizen be my guest to say whatever you like about islam.But do it armed to the teeth,with a serious bunch of nasty fellows beside you.Because your right as a private citizen doesn't justify public expense.
    Nooo, if you do not defend ie protect people then your people lose much more. This public expense pretext is a cop out. Another excuse and its the worst of the lot. What next will be lost because of 'public expense'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    As for what I believe,yep,I believe they'll win a passing victory.After that they'll be completely defeated and European nations will rise stronger than ever.
    i don't agree with this tactical withdrawal as i cannot fathom its purpose. I think you should hold your position. What i have read in the papers suggests France is doing just that.

  3. #198
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    New reports coming up about a "gunman and hostage" from France.


    Gunman holds 2 hostage in post office outside Paris: Police - Hindustan Times

    An armed man was holed up in a post office outside Paris on Friday with two hostages, police said, though there is no known link with last week's jihadist attacks.

    Police cordoned off the area in Colombes, a city northwest of Paris, and a helicopter was flying overhead.
    Earlier today, French and German authorities arrested more than a dozen people on Friday with suspected links to the Islamic State group and a Paris train station was evacuated, with Europe on alert for new potential terrorist attacks.

    The arrests came a day after Belgian police killed two gunmen recently returned from Syria during one of several raids across the country in a vast sweep against an Islamist network suspected of planning imminent strikes.

    Visiting a scarred Paris on Friday, US secretary of state John Kerry met French President Francois Hollande and went to the sites of the city’s worst terrorist bloodshed in decades.

    Twenty people, including the three gunmen, were killed last week in attacks on a kosher supermarket and the offices of satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo as well as police.

    Hollande thanked Kerry for offering France support, saying, “You’ve been victims yourself of an exceptional terrorist attack on Sept 11. You know what it means for a country. ... We must find together appropriate responses.”

    Underscoring heightened fears, police evacuated the Gare de l'Est train station after a bomb threat as Kerry’s motorcade sped from site to site.

    The Paris prosecutor’s office, meanwhile, said at least 10 people were arrested in anti-terrorism raids in the region, targeting people linked to one of the French gunmen, Amedy Coulibaly, who claimed ties to the Islamic State group.

    Across Europe, anxiety has grown as the hunt continues for potential accomplices of the three Paris terrorists, and as authorities try to prevent attacks by the thousands of European extremists who have joined Islamic State militants in Syria and Iraq.

    “The fight against terrorism must be international,” French foreign minister Laurent Fabius said. “Everybody must act: France, Europe and every country.”

    Ripples were visible in faraway Pakistan where about 200 protesters clashed with police outside the French consulate in Karachi after a demonstration against Charlie Hebdo turned violent with at least three people suffering injuries.

    After the clashes, the protesters, mainly students from a local university, retreated to a nearby area but refused to leave, as police blocked access to the consulate.

    The rallies came a day after Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif led parliament in condemning the cartoons, regarded by many Muslims as offensive.

  4. #199
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Err... free speech...

    Story of two unfunny satirists...
    Apparently the pretext is condoning an act of terrorism equates to inciting people into the next.

    No.

    Unless he said some thing clear & direct like go kill those particular people, its not the same.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Jan 15, at 23:10.

  5. #200
    Contributor 1980s's Avatar
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    Condell is pretty brutal and might not be correct about everything, although he does sum up pretty well the way i have observed growing frustrations among Brits who would ordinarily not pay any attention to radical Islam or religion at all.


  6. #201
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1980s View Post
    Condell is pretty brutal and might not be correct about everything, although he does sum up pretty well the way i have observed growing frustrations among Brits who would ordinarily not pay any attention to radical Islam or religion at all.
    These Brits aren't the problem its the ones that are frustrating them that have to be addressed.



    Their ideas, narratives, symbols, leaders & end goal that needs to be discredited. Who is going to do that ? it takes muslims to counter the above, and when they do they will be intimidated or killed. Safer to do so from from the west. In the wider ME a democratic alternative to the above 5 is yet to be articulated.

    As for intervening in bosnia, syria etc, hands were tied. When it came to Syria we banged on for over a hundred pages and it was a stalemate. As for Bosnia, Kofi seems to be the scape goat.

    He talks about a global insurgency. Way to deal with that is political will, capital & soldiers. Who will foot this bill.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Jan 15, at 10:58.

  7. #202
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    The inevitable argument that has broken out around free speech in the past few weeks sort of misses the point a bit to me. Free speech is never absolute or consistent. it is simply too wide an area for that to be the case. This article gets a bit closer to what I have been trying to express, if not 100%.

    Does what you are arguing for impinge upon my right to live in a secular society? Is the basis for your offence rational thought, or religious doctrine? If it’s the former, we have to find some form of compromise. But if it’s the latter, then I’m sorry, but that’s tough.

    If you don’t like images of the Prophet Muhammad, fine. Don’t draw them. But don’t tell me I can’t draw them. If you don’t want to marry someone of the same sex, don’t. But don’t try and tell me who I can and can’t marry. If you don’t think shops should open on a Sunday, don’t go to the shops. But don’t tell me I have to sit at home and make peace with your god.

    This is the line that needs to be drawn. Not around free speech, but around our right to have our own set of beliefs, rather than have them imposed as part of a de-facto theocracy.

    This is the deal. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims. Welcome. You are free to practice your faith amongst us. But never forget this. It is your faith, not mine. And if you can’t accept that, then in the immortal words of the mayor of Rotterdam, you can “f––– off”.
    This isn't about free speech – it's about the freedom to live in a secular society - Telegraph


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  8. #203
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    The debate about free speech will only end up in cul-de-sac. Unless you are prepared to literally say, “no boundaries, for any reason” it will never be possible to reach agreement on where the boundaries should be drawn. But one thing we can do is ensure is that wherever they are drawn, they are drawn by men, not gods.
    There are boundaries depending on the country and Charlie did not cross them as far as French law is concerned.

    Nobody said speech is absolute, it stops when you tell people to kill others. Until such point anything goes.

  9. #204
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Don't think so.Will you forbid people urging others to kill enemies?

    Mate,there never was and never will be free speech.Just as there is no absolute freedom.There are limits to that.Mainly,you're not allowed to harm those around,even if that limits your freedoms.
    There are exceptions to every rule.You are allowed to say whatever you want and do whatever harm you want to those outsiders who are enemies of your tribe.So pardon me,but I still consider those CH victims a bunch of morons.They painted a target on themselves and failed to be in a position of strength.Because if you exercise your right to insult someone's sacred symbols,you are his enemy.
    And no,I ignore in a very cavalier manner the idea of a civil society,the idea of a state governed by laws and all the other concepts that are fundamental to a state.Because in the no-go zones in France there is no French state to impose and defend those concepts.There are gangs and the nature of relations between different people is very tribal.And that's the reality.
    If you want to apply concepts that don't fit the reality on the ground,be my guest.But reality has nasty ways of making itself known.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  10. #205
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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  11. #206
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    The inevitable argument that has broken out around free speech in the past few weeks sort of misses the point a bit to me. Free speech is never absolute or consistent. it is simply too wide an area for that to be the case. This article gets a bit closer to what I have been trying to express, if not 100%.
    I am done with the notion that I have to be respectful toward someone else simply because they have an imaginary friend. The most absurd thing I've heard in all this debate? "You can insult me, but not the prophet." The 'prophet' is an invisible friend and as such can fuck off
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

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  12. #207
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    True freedom of speech.. One should be allowed to preach the greatnesss, righteousness, pureness, etc. of their religion while others should be likewise allowed to criticize and/or mock religions, their gods and their prophets.

    Or

    No one is allowed to criticize or mock religions and no one is allowed to publically preach or force their religion down others throats.

    Most religious nuts or the far right want to have one without the other.
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  13. #208
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor View Post
    This appears to be something of a theme on Fox. I suspect it is a combination of:

    *Using 'experts' whose expertise is being 100% in tune with the prejudices of the audience;
    *Having hosts who are stunningly ignorant;
    *Being strongly focussed on telling the audience what they already think is true;
    *Being fairly confident that not only will their audience believe anything about Muslims, but almost anything about 'socialist' Europe;
    *Being fairly confident that only a small percentage of their audience has ever left the USA & a tiny percentage been anywhere near the places they are talking about.

    Another recent example - The Birmingham Caliphate.

    Identified as the founder of the Investigative Project on Terrorism, Emerson got specific about this matter: “In Britain, it’s not just no-go zones. There are actual cities like Birmingham that are totally Muslim, where non-Muslims just simply don’t go in,” he said. Prime Minister David Cameron had a strong reaction to the comments: “When I heard this, frankly, I choked on my porridge and I thought it must be April Fools’ Day. This guy’s clearly a complete idiot.”
    Fox News to correct guest’s misstatements on Birmingham, ‘no-go zones’ - The Washington Post

    The 78% of people in Birmingham who aren't Muslim were no doubt a bit surprised by this.

    What wasn't surprising was that the host of the show not only accepted this idiot's claim at face value (seriously, there are rocks that would have at least raised an eyebrow), she added:

    You know what it sounds like to me Steve, it sounds like a Caliphate within a particular country
    Needless to say Steve agreed, and then threw in a gratuitous Israel reference. Its almost like there are certain words that have a quota to be filled.


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  14. #209
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Don't think so.Will you forbid people urging others to kill enemies?
    If we agree one can't advocate killing people then enemies are included. Otherwise people who come from said enemy country but live in your country automatically become targets for being in the wrong place for no fault of theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Mate,there never was and never will be free speech.Just as there is no absolute freedom.There are limits to that.Mainly,you're not allowed to harm those around,even if that limits your freedoms.
    Charlie did not break any laws. Not even existing hate speech ones. Are you saying whatever limited speech that exist in Europe is too free ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    There are exceptions to every rule.You are allowed to say whatever you want and do whatever harm you want to those outsiders who are enemies of your tribe.
    How does one define 'harm' here ? Exceptions to rules are being created by whom ? by law or bullets.

    Charlie took shots at every one and any one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    So pardon me,but I still consider those CH victims a bunch of morons.They painted a target on themselves and failed to be in a position of strength.Because if you exercise your right to insult someone's sacred symbols,you are his enemy.
    They returned after the 2011 firebombing and still put out an issue after this attack. Right now they are going through a personnel issue. They will be back. The govt has not stopped them in fact it has helped them. And the people showed their support in the streets.

    Nothing has changed since the attack as they have not been stopped from putting out anything more. They are only facing a temporary setback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    And no,I ignore in a very cavalier manner the idea of a civil society,the idea of a state governed by laws and all the other concepts that are fundamental to a state.Because in the no-go zones in France there is no French state to impose and defend those concepts.There are gangs and the nature of relations between different people is very tribal.And that's the reality.
    How familiar are you with these no-go zones. I read an article where Cameron called out an 'expert' on fox for declaring the entire city of Birmingham as a no-go zone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    If you want to apply concepts that don't fit the reality on the ground,be my guest.But reality has nasty ways of making itself known.
    Right and if you give in you will have less. Somebody is trying to take what you fought for because it threatens them. What will it take for these people to realise that a cartoon cannot possibly do that and the sooner they realise it the stronger they will become.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jan 15, at 02:53.

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