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2 NYPD cops shot dead ‘execution style’ in Brooklyn

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    The countries taken as a bench mark are not correct, as Japan, Britain and Germany have fairly strict gun laws compared to the US. With the availability of guns in the US the Police have to be always on the alert, as criminals have easy access to guns. Hence more shooting incidents.

    However, in the case of India, the incidents from death by police shooting are very high, considering that we do not have easy access to guns.
    Logically that could account for a significant part of the difference.

    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
    I'm well aware of that, I just can't see how an implicit bias, whether the social psychologists or the criminologists, can in any way, shape or form reinforce or justify a claim that black teens get shot 21 times as many as white teens by Police. Any police team across the country will shoot 21 black kids for every white kid? Really? As I said earlier, your police would have to be almost exclusively KKK, which of course they are not.
    At the very least. you have exhibited a major doubt over such a claim, and with some contributions by others have established that any analysis is complex and difficult to interpret due to the nature of the data.

    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
    I therefore dismiss those numbers, just as criminologists do, and ascribe it's use to the current Democrat assault on police and the legal system.
    I am willing to dismiss them as well, having done a little research of my own. I agree that exaggerating discrimination is very dangerous to society. You posted up a lot of materials, from both sides, and it's difficult for me to exactly and definitely understand your position.

    Do you believe there is any racial bias in the US policing or judicial system that requires measures to be taken?

    Just to add, I believe that any racial bias, if existing, requires a disproportional response in favour of amelioration because the perception is that the problem is very great indeed, and being practical, that perception isn't likely to disappear by telling people their analysis is statistically unsound.

    Without having ever looked at single study, or series of data, would in not be very surprising if there was no racial bias at all, given the history of racism against blacks in the US, the fact that blacks are more more likely to involved in crime because of there socioeconomic status, also a product of that same history, and the natural tendency towards discrimination in humanity.
    Last edited by tantalus; 23 Dec 14,, 13:01.

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    • #32
      Break the police union. Something about a union to protect heavily armed government officials from scrutiny and secure six figure tax payer funded pensions which just sounds repulsive.
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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      • #33
        "I'm well aware of that, I just can't see how an implicit bias, whether the social psychologists or the criminologists, can in any way, shape or form reinforce or justify a claim that black teens get shot 21 times as many as white teens by Police. Any police team across the country will shoot 21 black kids for every white kid? Really? As I said earlier, your police would have to be almost exclusively KKK, which of course they are not."

        That's not what people are claiming. Biased threat perception is considered part of the problem, but there are additional structural factors such as the confluence of the war on drugs, disappearance of traditional jobs for inner-city blacks, urban planning which concentrates poverty, etc., and all of which have a synergistic impact on rate of black violent deaths. Criticism is concentrated on Law Enforcement because as an arm of the government they are more capable of change than other large-scale political, economic and cultural problems. Most of the research in fact suggest cops are less likely to be affected by implicit bias than ordinary citizens which is attributable to training.
        Last edited by Triple C; 23 Dec 14,, 15:17.
        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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        • #34
          Until we get good data tracking of police shootings and use of force incidents we will never know for sure since we don't know how many people police actually kill.

          Troung- busting up the police unions that use milquetoast reprimands in place of judicial proceedings for felony offenses would be a great help. As would making cops carry personal liability insurance. Sure the department would pay, but as a bad cop wracked up lawsuits and settlements his premium would go up and the department could get rid of him or force him to pay his own premiums, either way he would get priced out of law enforcement.

          Granted, given the 4 of every 10 cops is dirty* it would be a big boost to the unemployment numbers. But most of us wouldn't mind since the real policing is done by the good 60% anyway.

          * 40% of spouses of police report being victims of domestic violence.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by tantalus View Post

            Do you believe there is any racial bias in the US policing or judicial system .....
            Yes I do, I regard it as minor and a convenient scapegoat for the political/ruling classes. Any actions are easily covered by current training.

            As to my own opinion, it aligns with Chuck Canterbury, head of the largest police organisation in the world. It's not a union you'll note.

            Politicians have spent the months since the tragedy in Ferguson piously wringing their hands and bemoaning the lack of trust of police by the minority community. Mayors and Congressmen and Senators and professional racists from all sides have seized on the moment to advance their often self-serving opinions of what is wrong in America as a hyperventilating media nods knowingly and faithfully reports each and every word. Enough is enough.

            While these politicians and their retinues ignore the decaying infrastructure of our cities, the substandard educational system, the nonexistent families, the poor nutrition, the lack of employment opportunities--all of which create a toxic environment which breeds crime--they focus with laser vision on every real or perceived mistake made by the cops fighting a running battle to keep the streets safe for our poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in our country's worst pockets.

            Enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with the way cops do their jobs that won't be fixed when politicians suck it up and attack the problems that breed poverty and crime--but they're not going to do that. The media professes shock when we speak out--well, buckle them on America--you're going to hear a lot from our 325,000 members in the days and months ahead. Some of you may not like it, but you would do well to listen
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
              Yes I do, I regard it as minor and a convenient scapegoat for the political/ruling classes. Any actions are easily covered by current training.

              As to my own opinion, it aligns with Chuck Canterbury, head of the largest police organisation in the world. It's not a union you'll note.
              I agree that many others issues, including those listed by Canterbury are more important social issues, many of them contributing to the lesser issue of racial discrimination by police. I am guessing its an issue worth tackling, but its just guess, I would need the data to convince me. The perception is that it is a major issue, and that is significant in itself. Blaming solely the political/ruling classes on face value seems unconvincing. It seems more likely that most of the impetus stems from a critical mass of civilian perception and is propagated by the nature of the media, which never reports in proportion to the the severity of the problem.

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              • #37
                hey focus with laser vision on every real or perceived mistake made by the cops fighting a running battle to keep the streets safe for our poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in our country's worst pockets.
                Like choking the life out of a man over sales taxes? Kept that street safe.

                Enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with the way cops do their jobs that won't be fixed when politicians suck it up and attack the problems that breed poverty and crime--but they're not going to do that.
                Choking someone to death over sales tax... well I guess that was tax money out of their pensions it was good to send a message...

                The media professes shock when we speak out--well, buckle them on America--you're going to hear a lot from our 325,000 members in the days and months ahead. Some of you may not like it, but you would do well to listen
                Through public sector unions at tax payer expense.

                Mayors and Congressmen and Senators and professional racists from all sides have seized on the moment to advance their often self-serving opinions of what is wrong in America as a hyperventilating media nods knowingly and faithfully reports each and every word. Enough is enough.
                Yeah those bastards protesting police violence, how dare they.

                ===========
                Piece of pondscum sucking on the tax payers tit...

                ======
                Something about organizations which exist to protect government agents who abuse US citizens and fleece the taxpayer for huge pensions - and then have the gall to be goddamn bitchy.
                Last edited by troung; 24 Dec 14,, 00:48.
                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                Comment


                • #38
                  Of course, they should all be paid shit, if at all. Get rid of them and you can just hire private security from your own pocket when you think you need it. Good luck with that.
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

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                  • #39
                    Do we have data comparing arrests for drug possession by race overlaid with drug usage patterns by race?
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                      Do we have data comparing arrests for drug possession by race overlaid with drug usage patterns by race?
                      http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/fil...s0309web_1.pdf
                      HRW claims to demonstrate that, haven't risked it myself
                      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                      Leibniz

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                        Of course, they should all be paid shit, if at all. Get rid of them and you can just hire private security from your own pocket when you think you need it. Good luck with that.
                        When was the last time you heard about cops solving a burglary? Hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested... national the rate for solved murders is exceedingly low... but woe to anyone who does ten over the speed limit or sells a loose cigarette. Too many cops are revenue agents for the stare, professional extortionist, nothing more.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by zraver View Post
                          When was the last time you heard about cops solving a burglary? Hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested... national the rate for solved murders is exceedingly low... but woe to anyone who does ten over the speed limit or sells a loose cigarette. Too many cops are revenue agents for the stare, professional extortionist, nothing more.
                          Don't necessarily agree with all the specifics here, but the 'war on drugs' soaks up a ridiculous amount of police time & resources. Can also be a nice little earner.

                          I think we had some stuff about that here a few years back including input from some former cops. I'll try to do some digging.
                          sigpic

                          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            When was the last time you heard about cops solving a burglary? Hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested... national the rate for solved murders is exceedingly low... but woe to anyone who does ten over the speed limit or sells a loose cigarette. Too many cops are revenue agents for the stare, professional extortionist, nothing more.
                            Then sack them, or reprioritise them. It is you, after all, who enables and tasks them.
                            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                            Leibniz

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                              Then sack them, or reprioritise them. It is you, after all, who enables and tasks them.
                              If you think American police are responsive to public pressure you've missed the entire debate. Powerful unions, property interests in employment, allies in the prosecutors office, personal immunity, internal action in lieu of prosecution (even for felonies).... They are a world unto themselves and they answer to no one, least of all us poor serfs who pay their wages.
                              Last edited by zraver; 24 Dec 14,, 17:19.

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                              • #45
                                The money should be paid out of the pension fund - give them some skin in the game and not bill the serfs twice...
                                NYPD misconduct claims at record highs | Al Jazeera America
                                NYPD misconduct claims at record highs
                                City statistics show claims against New York City police have never been higher or costlier
                                December 9, 2014 5:00AM ET
                                by Michael Keller @mhkeller

                                Complaints of alleged police wrongdoing in New York City have hit a record level of 5,601 — a 150 percent increase from 2006 — and when the claims were settled or went to trial, they have cost the city over $315 million from 2006 to 2012, according to latest figures released by the city.

                                The numbers reflect concerns spotlighted in recent days by rising public anger over incidents including the fatal police shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown on Aug. 9 in Ferguson, Missouri, and the police chokehold death of New York City resident Eric Garner in July. In both cases, grand juries recently declined to indict the police officers involved, triggering major nationwide demonstrations accusing police of excessive force and racism.

                                On average, New York City pays about $45 million a year to settle or pay plaintiffs who have won in court on police-related claims, which are defined as "alleged improper police conduct, such as false arrest or imprisonment, shooting of a suspect, excessive force, assault or failure to provide police protection." Before a Staten Island grand jury decided not to indict the officer who killed Garner, Garner's family said they planned to sue the city for $75 million in civil court.

                                In 2000, to help control rising costs from claims filed against the city's police force, the city comptroller recommended the New York Police Department incorporate payout information into its statistical crime-tracking program. Twelve years and repeated recommendations later, claims are at record levels, and the NYPD hasn’t developed any system for routinely tracking them by officer, offense or precinct.

                                The NYPD did not respond to a request for comment in time for publication.

                                Number of claims filed, by claim type, fiscal years 2006 to 2012


                                Number of claimsPolice actionCivil rightsDefective sidewalkCorrectionsMotor vehicleSchoolDefective roadwayUnknown claim typeMedical malpracticeCity propertyRecreationEmployee Uniformed ServicesTraffic control deviceHealth facilityAdmiralty20062007200820092010201120120k10k 2.5k5k7.5kHighcharts.com


                                Note: New York City fiscal years run from July 1 to June 30. For example, fiscal year 2012 is July 2011 to June 2012.
                                Source: NYC Office of the Comptroller, Annual Claims report.

                                Claims are not always proof of wrongdoing, said Joel Berger, a civil rights attorney who was a senior litigator with the city’s law department from 1988 to 1996. "But typically in a police misconduct case, once a lawyer decides to file it, that means the lawyer has investigated it and has come to the conclusion that it's sufficiently meritorious to spend time and resources on," he said. "The important thing is that the number of complaints skyrocketed over a five-year period. When you have that large an increase, it's got to tell you something."

                                "Police action" and claims against the NYPD are often cited in comptroller reports as areas "of concern" and consistently cost the city a large share of personal injury payouts along with civil rights claims, a category that includes claims of discrimination and alleged civil rights violations by law enforcement.

                                Dollar amount of settlements and judgments, by claim type, fiscal years 2006 to 2012


                                Settlement or judgment amountMedical malpracticeMotor vehicleCivil rightsPolice actionDefective sidewalkDefective roadwaySchoolsEmployee uniformed servicesRecreationHealth facilityAdmiraltyCity propertyCorrection facilityTraffic control device2006200720082009201020112012$0M$50M$100M$150 M$200MHighcharts.com


                                Note: New York City fiscal years run from July 1 to June 30. Year-over-year comparisons may be skewed by large settlements in one year, such as the $52 million recently paid to the Central Park 5, who were falsely convicted of a murder in 1989 and sued the city in 2003.
                                Source: NYC Office of the Comptroller, Annual Claims report.

                                The comptroller is still preparing the figures for fiscal year 2013, but Berger said the overall trend isn’t likely to go away. "There’s a huge backlog of cases in the city’s law department, and I still get cases of police overstepping their bounds," he said. "In 2014 narcotics cops in Brooklyn jumped a perfectly innocent woman and claimed she was doing a narcotic transaction. They discovered no transaction had taken place, but they didn’t like the woman’s attitude and arrested her for disorderly conduct. You see this stuff all the time."

                                These numbers show the roots of a frustration with police even before the high-profile cases like Garner's and Brown's, Berger said, and are evidence of policing practices that put residents at odds with police.

                                "For those of us who work in civil rights litigation, we saw the volume of our work was going up and the majority of them were low-level cases that don’t attract media attention," he said. "They weren’t people being beaten to a pulp or railroaded into false confessions. It was people being arrested because a cop didn’t like their attitude and wanted to run them through the system even though they knew the case would get thrown out."

                                Number of settlements and judgments by Claim type, Fiscal Years 2006 to 2012


                                No. of settlements and judgementsPolice actionCivil rightsDefective sidewalkMotor vehicleSchoolDefective roadwayCorrection facilityMedical malpracticeMedical malpracticeRecreationEmployee Uniformed ServicesEmployee Uniformed ServicesCity propertyAdmiraltyTraffic control devices2006200720082009201020112012050010001500200 0Highcharts.com


                                Note: New York City fiscal years run from July 1 to June 30. For example, fiscal year 2012 is July 2011 to June 2012.
                                Source: NYC Office of the Comptroller, Annual Claims report.

                                One proposal in the comptroller’s report is to create a task force with representatives from various civil groups to identify precincts that have seen repeated claims and seek remedies. Similarly, tracking which officers have claims repeatedly filed against them and the outcome of these claims would let the NYPD better address long-term trends.

                                "I've had cases of someone arrested for a controlled substance violation when he had in his pocket one pill of Motrin. I’ve had someone arrested for public urination when he was on dialysis and couldn’t urinate. You couldn’t make this stuff up," Berger said. “It's a terrible epidemic and indicative of the stuff that’s going on that is causing so much public outrage at the moment. Notwithstanding the statements of Mayor [Bill] de Blasio and Police Commissioner [William] Bratton to the contrary, the city's law department continues to fight these cases fiercely."
                                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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