Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2014 Sydney hostage crisis

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
    there's a bench that covers the entire front entry which the T was using as a natural barrier
    the rear element is lobbing over the team and over the barrier to put him off
    until they cleared that bench they were blind as to what was behind it - eg did he have explosives rigged behind the barriers etc.....
    they had to assume worst case scenarios

    that assaulter (who got shot but was back at work today) did a sterling job

    as you know, the problem with TV footage is that it shows none of the tactical complexity that had to be considered and addressed when they breached
    My colleagues and I watched the albeit limited footage available on TV and of course in time honored fashion discussed the tactical aspects based on our (strictly) limited training and experience. There were no significant conclusions other than the observation that since the assault team didn't initiate the engagement but rather had the timing imposed on them by circumstances beyond their control there wasn't a whole lot anyone could have done differently barring slight details - and who the hell are we to critisise since we weren't in the room.

    Coincidentally one of my colleges is married to a very ex SEAL who decided Aus was nice place to settle. He also watched the footage and his (2nd hand) viewpoint was firstly, a slight expression of surprise that they chose multiple (2 that could be seen ) entry points rather than a singular breach point and secondly a comment to the effect that "then again we would normally get at least 24 hours to rehearse the operation before we went in not a few seconds." Or words to that effect. So no criticisms there either.

    Some time down the track if we're very lucky we'll get access to a classified post op report on the incident and maybe even some excerpts from the Police cam video if there is any for training purposes but all that is a loooong way away. Until then those guys carry the weight of the world on their shoulders every time they breach as do their colleagues in various forces/teams around the world.
    Last edited by Monash; 17 Dec 14,, 10:41.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Monash View Post

      Some time down the track if we're very lucky we'll get access to a classified post op report on the incident and maybe even some excerpts from the Police cam video if there is any for training purposes but all that is a loooong way away. Until then those guys carry the weight of the world on their shoulders every time they breach as do their colleagues in various forces/teams around the world.
      yeah, I do arc up at some of the criticism from people who have no idea and who's entire knowledge about HRT or CT is a bruce willis or steven segall movie :)

      they did a sterling job when the whole thing got bought forward out of necessity. The sad thing is that the hostage who decided to seize the day was actually doing something that wasn't far off the mark. at the 12+ hrs mark a lone hostage taker would be struggling with sleep deprivation, he had no control over all the hostages (which is why 5 of them bolted) and he had no idea that the big green button by the front door was the night time exit button (left over from the bank days) and so hadn't even disabled it

      (I am guessing) that the teams intent would have been to wait a few more hrs when they knew he would be really buggered and do a violent entry, waking up groggy, flash bangs going off etc he would have been too unco to be effective. unfort when the hostage decided to have a crack he put the T into an alert mode and the team had no option but to go in as he was likely to kill more than just the tackler.

      I think it will be some time before there is an unclass post action report.

      there is a reason for multiple (concentric) breaching, but far be it for me to say why etc...... eg dealing with divided hostages, force compression etc.....

      and exactly what your colleagues ex STM said, on a considered breach you get to practice, set up a model, even run against a dummy target site.... they had none of that luxury
      Linkeden:
      http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
      http://cofda.wordpress.com/

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
        there needs to be some perspective added to this issue that the CT team could have taken him out with a head shot

        all of the headshot footage that viewers saw was via a 600mm telephoto broadcast camera that was being fed through to the police ops. it was 250m away from Lindts and 2 stories up
        the Lindt cafe is an ex bank, the front windows are armoured plate glass, the footage was shot from 250m away a few floors up and through a rated plate glass window
        there is no way that a single head shot was possible through that line of sight vision

        when the assaulter went through they used a door breaching charge which is why the glass exploded. The rear team member is lobbing flashbangs ahead of the assaulter (he was the one who was shot at and hit). note when one of the team goes down that he stays down so that the rest of the team can go over the top of him

        there is no way that they could take an early shot as they also were concerned that his backpack was full of EO/IED and that he had a deadmans switch. he had indicated placement of other devices, and they needed to confirm that over time, so knocking him off without establishing what else he might have done would have been irresponsible. thats why there was concern about the opera house and one other major public building

        TV doesn't show the reality of what the commander on the ground has to deal with
        Oh well, another great idea of mine ruined by the facts.


        Thanks for clearing that up gf. Even though the glass was what it was do you believe that our laws here would've allowed the snipers to take guy out given the chance?

        The team absolutely did a magnificent job. The pressure on those guys would have been immense and I'd say the first time they'd had a situation of this magnitude. I can only imagine that those guys would be beating themselves over the lost hostages wondering what they could have done differently. I say that because those teams train and drill in search of perfection and the type of guys they're won't accept anything but. I'm glad we've got those chaps ready to chew up and spit out total waste of space, pathetic excuse for an organism, losers like this bottom feeder was.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Gun Boat View Post
          Oh well, another great idea of mine ruined by the facts.


          Thanks for clearing that up gf. Even though the glass was what it was do you believe that our laws here would've allowed the snipers to take guy out given the chance?

          The team absolutely did a magnificent job. The pressure on those guys would have been immense and I'd say the first time they'd had a situation of this magnitude. I can only imagine that those guys would be beating themselves over the lost hostages wondering what they could have done differently. I say that because those teams train and drill in search of perfection and the type of guys they're won't accept anything but. I'm glad we've got those chaps ready to chew up and spit out total waste of space, pathetic excuse for an organism, losers like this bottom feeder was.

          I think if they had had a clear shot and it was the only option available then they would have done so. there are reports coming back which unfort I cannot reproduce here due to releasability issues. however they do reinforce the fact that there was concern that there may have been explosives rigged, the potential for sleeper T's inside that no one was aware of etc.....

          I'm loathe to add other views at the moment because although its over, there are other considerations in play. anything I'm adding still comes under the banner of "speculation"

          It would appear that he became more violent after the second batch of hostages escaped and decided to give the deceased male hostage a bit of a hiding and the gun went off - the male hostage then responded and the weapon was discharged again and killed him - at that point the team had to execute the emergency action assault to ensure that he didn't start killing all the other hostages. that decision frame to start of the breach was approx 25seconds. end of the siege from that point on was another 9 seconds

          so the response times are still blurry but was still very aggressive and prosecuted with some vigour. there is some speculation that dazzlers were used and not flashbangs but thats not corroborated from a credible source yet. On scene mic would be useful but that won't be forthcoming

          good riddance to garbage.
          Linkeden:
          http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
          http://cofda.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • #65
            Hell of a job.

            Well done.

            We stand with Australia!
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
              all those bright flashes are flashbangs - each one has multiple pyros as well as a 180db+ charge

              weapons rounds are a different colour.

              they are NOT firing off guns with gay abandon - thats the flash bangs used to disorient and destabilise the target. they use multiple flashbangs as they want to keep him disorientated and unable to coherently respond

              they had to breach once he was tackled by a hostage and he had killed the guy who tried to tackle him.

              from alert to clear its 47 seconds. from breach to clear its about 20 seconds

              those blokes saved lives
              Just to clarify: I'm not criticising them in anyway, and the reason for my rather ambiguous post on unidentified items being thrown in was simply because I couldn't identify them.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by chanjyj View Post
                Just to clarify: I'm not criticising them in anyway, and the reason for my rather ambiguous post on unidentified items being thrown in was simply because I couldn't identify them.
                No dramas

                we all can do it

                eg its SOP to use flashbangs so when looking at the footage I assumed that they were using flashbangs. But the audio was "dislocated" as it was coming from a different source, so I assumed that it was being effectively muffled. It now seems that they were using dazzlers instead (flashbang without percussion). If thats the case then I am guessing that they were worried that flashbangs might spook the rest of the hostages and there would be a greater chance of erratic movement and the hostages then getting caught in crossfire.

                as I said before, there is a fair degree of speculation still in play as no unclass material has been released. some of the data that I am confident about has not been cleared, so am staying well away from making comment on some areas
                Linkeden:
                http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                http://cofda.wordpress.com/

                Comment


                • #68
                  ^^ Well worth my while shutting up until it all blows over to understand the issues. Thanks GF.
                  Ego Numquam

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Thanks GF & Monash for the analysis & info. Insights we might never otherwise get and a useful antidote to some of the speculation tha tis out there. Stuff like this is why this place exists.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      A guy fearing for his life, the manager, figuring he has nothing to lose and suffering from the same exhaustion as the hostage taker, went for it. Brave man.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        A question to GF & Monash. Have you guys heard any credible info (that you can discuss in open forum) about multiple shooters/would be shooters? Got someone trying to run a conspiracy theory on another forum. Would like to be able to hose it down if its not true (strongly suspect it isn't).
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                          A question to GF & Monash. Have you guys heard any credible info (that you can discuss in open forum) about multiple shooters/would be shooters? Got someone trying to run a conspiracy theory on another forum. Would like to be able to hose it down if its not true (strongly suspect it isn't).
                          single shooter only

                          there was an initial concern that there might be sleepers inside with the hostages playing possum - but that's why everyone rescued gets interrogated

                          most will come out in the coronial report
                          Linkeden:
                          http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                          http://cofda.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            qualification

                            both principle snipers were 40m away but the major concern was path of shot and that Monis had explosives in his backpack and a deadmans switch
                            the entire channel 7 building was on a bomb alert
                            Linkeden:
                            http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
                            http://cofda.wordpress.com/

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                              A question to GF & Monash. Have you guys heard any credible info (that you can discuss in open forum) about multiple shooters/would be shooters? Got someone trying to run a conspiracy theory on another forum. Would like to be able to hose it down if its not true (strongly suspect it isn't).
                              As of this date, single shooter only. If there was anyone else involved we would be actively hunting them using all the standard methodologies including appeals to the public for information. Conspiracy theories circulating on the net do not help so please stamp on any you see trying to raise their ugly heads. For starters try asking why there has to be others involved (it's not as if his MO was so complex that by default it required the participation of others in order to succeed) and if there are others why are they not active? At this point in time there is simply nothing to be gained from their perspective by not acting - they lose media impact. This is real life and as tragic as the outcome was we are not living in in a Tom Clancy novel.

                              In any event you can be sure his movements/activities prior to recent events are being gone over with a fine tooth comb. For one thing the person who sold him the dam firearm should be very,very nervous.
                              Last edited by Monash; 21 Dec 14,, 10:49.
                              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by cataphract View Post
                                I'm guessing it was a rather poor attempt to link himself with the global jihadi movement.
                                But that's the flexibility of this movement. Anyone from any part of the world with a personal or local grievance can plug into the cause.

                                Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                                Once upon a time waving a red flag was the way to say 'up you western world'. Now it is an IS flag.
                                No east or west here. With us or against us.

                                Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                                unfort when the hostage decided to have a crack he put the T into an alert mode and the team had no option but to go in as he was likely to kill more than just the tackler.
                                Implying had the altercation not occurred then less or no lives may have been lost ?
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Dec 14,, 11:32.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X