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  • #16
    Originally posted by Pedicabby View Post
    I thought Hinduism was something that you need to be born into.
    Using your post to join the rave. Please pardon me if I have said more than what your post required as an answer.

    It ^ was quite absolute that way, but things changed recently.

    I already said here couple of months ago that this is going to start now. ~"People in India who are on a mission of sole hunting are going to taste the same medicine".

    Hindus are at conflict with any one who so ever converts Hindus to Islam or Christianity.

    Anyone (after my post) telling you that the perception of being at conflict is synthetic or wrongly perceived then they will be not doing an honest assessment. There has/had been always a big 'mum' on talking about that conflict in India by political parties including one in power now and media. There has be an effort to deny Hindus a level playing field by not recognizing this conflict. But after this so called forced conversion back to Hinduism controversy in India there has been sudden surge and desperation to talk Hindus down. I mean they never talked about the infection but all are ready to talk about the symptom.

    The present government was in catch 22, but now via their sister concern bodies they are coming out to rub it on everyone's face.

    To opposition, leftists, liberals, media, Hindu apologists if one has to give benefit of doubt that they see it counter productive in long run for unity of India and religious harmony then again they are putting the blame on majority, making them more pissed off. I mean they are denying them a deal or compromise.

    The same opposition who wants to talk about all the Hindu controversies, making noises to stall the parliament session, are staging walk out when Government wants to talk about the new law where most probably they can discuss the harassment faced by genuine converts or aspiring to convert and grey areas of present laws operating in states (few out lined by Double Edge). Especially when they know they are still holding the cards in lower house (Rajya Sabha) for next one or two years.
    Last edited by ambidex; 14 Dec 14,, 12:04.

    Comment


    • #17
      BJP calls for national law to curb conversions
      All arguments put up by the BJP/ RSS are a clever ruse to fool the majority of Hindus who support them. If the Hindus realise the true aim of the Sangh then RSS would loose its support base.

      This is the true agenda of the BJP/ RSS: "The Hindu wave has just begun. In 10 years we will convert all Christians and Muslims,.." statement by Rajeshwar Singh the Regional RSS Head in western UP. 'Love Jihad' and religious conversion polarise in Narendra Modi's India | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

      The sooner people realise this the better it will be for our country.
      The events of the past 7 months indicate that my fears (on communal and sectarian growth)on the pre-election threads...are coming true.

      1. Engineered riots in Moradabad July 2014.
      2. Engineered riots in Trilokpuri, Delhi Oct 2014.
      3. Attempts to engineer riots in Oct 2014 Delhi's Bawana in the West, Majnu ka Tilla in the North and Okhla in the South. When Muharram processions were banned by local Panchayats.
      4. In Bastar, Bihar, Bajrang Dal assault Christians when their "reconversion" ceremony flopped.
      5. VHP's imposing its terror on Church runs schools.
      6. This is statement shows how daft the Sangh is - Why Santa distributes chocolates? asks VHP - The Times of India
      7. Burning of the St Sebastian Church in east Delhi Dec 2014.
      8. RSS says it converted 200 Muslims into Hindus in Agra.
      9. RSS body seeks donations to fund Christmas ‘conversions’ in Aligarh.

      This is not a BJP for development , this is BJP for sectarianism.

      Cheers!...on the rocks!!

      Comment


      • #18
        BJP calls for national law to curb conversions
        All arguments put up by the BJP/ RSS are a clever ruse to fool the majority of Hindus who support them. If the Hindus realise the true aim of the Sangh then RSS would loose its support base.

        This is the true agenda of the BJP/ RSS: "The Hindu wave has just begun. In 10 years we will convert all Christians and Muslims,.." statement by Rajeshwar Singh the Regional RSS Head in western UP. 'Love Jihad' and religious conversion polarise in Narendra Modi's India | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

        The sooner people realise this the better it will be for our country.
        The events of the past 7 months indicate that my fears (on communal and sectarian growth)on the pre-election threads...are coming true.

        1. Engineered riots in Moradabad July 2014.
        2. Engineered riots in Trilokpuri, Delhi Oct 2014.
        3. Attempts to engineer riots in Oct 2014 Delhi's Bawana in the West, Majnu ka Tilla in the North and Okhla in the South. When Muharram processions were banned by local Panchayats.
        4. In Bastar, Bihar, Bajrang Dal assault Christians when their "reconversion" ceremony flopped.
        5. VHP's imposing its terror on Church runs schools.
        6. This is statement shows how daft the Sangh is - Why Santa distributes chocolates? asks VHP - The Times of India
        7. Burning of the St Sebastian Church in east Delhi Dec 2014.
        8. RSS says it converted 200 Muslims into Hindus in Agra.
        9. RSS body seeks donations to fund Christmas ‘conversions’ in Aligarh.

        This is not a BJP for development , this is BJP for sectarianism.

        Cheers!...on the rocks!!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ambidex View Post
          Originally posted by Pedicabby
          I thought Hinduism was something that you need to be born into.
          It ^ was quite absolute that way, but things changed recently.
          What do you mean by "recently"? Sakas (Indo-Scythians, 1900 years back), Kushans (Yuezhi, 1700 years back), Hunas (White Huns, 1400 years back), Tai (Ahom, 700 years back), etc. are only some of the largest tribes/communities coming in from Central Asia (in the North West) and Tibetan-Burmese areas (in the North East), who became "Hindu".

          It was only since the advent of Islam as political power in northern India (12th C C.E.) - which punishes apostasy with death, and incentivized conversion to Islam with exemption of the poll-tax (jizya) - did such large-scale assimilation into Hinduism disappear. But with the fall of the Mughals and the advent of the British in the 18th Century, Hindu reformist movements like Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, etc setup procedures for conversion/re-conversion into Hinduism.

          On a side-note: this history should show antimony that except maybe the tribal medicine-man/shaman, no one really want to be a "brahmin" (i.e. a priest), everyone wants to be a kshatriya (i.e a warrior class). Being a "brahmin" has numerous recurring costs - some expect you to become vegetarian, other expect you to give up alcohol; traditionally your children leave school later, enter work-force later, marry later and have fewer grand-children, etc. Becoming a kshatriya, otoh, has fewer recurring costs and more benefits - just give up beef and pay off a few priests, and it legitimizes your rule and mitigates chances of rebellions. All these groups sought and received (at least for the duration of their political power), the kshatriya status.

          Comment


          • #20
            There is a big problem that the dominant religions in the Republic of India are going to run into, i have only seen the divide increase in the last 10 years.
            There needs to be more integration of the different religions, people need to know and talk with each other more, just so that they know that they are not dealing with the monsters they perceive but just ordinary humans like them.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cactus View Post
              What do you mean by "recently"? Sakas (Indo-Scythians, 1900 years back), Kushans (Yuezhi, 1700 years back), Hunas (White Huns, 1400 years back), Tai (Ahom, 700 years back), etc. are only some of the largest tribes/communities coming in from Central Asia (in the North West) and Tibetan-Burmese areas (in the North East), who became "Hindu".
              Where was the conflict ?

              Those conversion were volunteer, adaptation of more metropolitan way of life with better literal culture and mainly political decisions to assimilate into popular belief system for better governance etc.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by kuku View Post
                There is a big problem that the dominant religions in the Republic of India are going to run into, i have only seen the divide increase in the last 10 years.
                There needs to be more integration of the different religions, people need to know and talk with each other more, just so that they know that they are not dealing with the monsters they perceive but just ordinary humans like them.

                People are not going to talk to each other. The Law has to talk for all.

                Those who are going to say (counter propaganda) that the law will be a gimmickry, a farce, fooling both sides then we should treat them as people who are poor in conflict resolutions. Let it be a deception or political tool but at the end of the day there will be compromise agreed by both side even if it may not be able to stop missionaries doing their fundamental job.

                The integration is just an idealism which may work or remain just a word in the dictionary. Like the evil of Castism and untouchability many laws were worked out, same needs to be done in this case. BTW this traction is not new, there are political concern available of Indira Gandhi and higher court judgments available when petitions were filed against forceful mass conversions performed by Christian missionaries.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  I already said here couple of months ago that this is going to start now. ~"People in India who are on a mission of sole hunting are going to taste the same medicine".

                  Hindus are at conflict with any one who so ever converts Hindus to Islam or Christianity.
                  We've seen the picture before when the NDA was in power the last time around. Some noise here & there.

                  How much changed ? more threats of violence for deterrence.

                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  Anyone (after my post) telling you that the perception of being at conflict is synthetic or wrongly perceived then they will be not doing an honest assessment. There has/had been always a big 'mum' on talking about that conflict in India by political parties including one in power now and media.
                  If you look at the Hindu archives back in 2000, there is quite a bit of reporting. Talk all you want, freedom of speech and all.

                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  The present government was in catch 22, but now via their sister concern bodies they are coming out to rub it on everyone's face.
                  Deja vu, its up to the BJP to navigate the waters.

                  Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                  The same opposition who wants to talk about all the Hindu controversies, making noises to stall the parliament session, are staging walk out when Government wants to talk about the new law where most probably they can discuss the harassment faced by genuine converts or aspiring to convert and grey areas of present laws operating in states (few out lined by Double Edge). Especially when they know they are still holding the cards in lower house (Rajya Sabha) for next one or two years.
                  This is opposition doing its job.

                  I don't know how to make this workable. What the side effects will be for both sides.

                  What is a forced conversion ? this went on when we were not in charge. You had to tie people down for three generation to make it stick. So there is already a natural barrier.

                  I am left thinking that hundreds of years of mughal rule could not change things, religions still thrived and new ones were born.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Dec 14,, 03:11.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Unfortunately people are gaming the system by converting and reconverting for monetary purpose. The christian missionaries and Islamic clerks who converts people to their respective religion state caste system as a evil one (rightfully) but what they go on silent is that even the converts are considered as "second class" within their own religion by giving them a tag as Dalit Christian and Dalit Muslim and so on. This is where the conflict is. I had argued before about the effects of conversion in TN , these European based NGO's are pumping money to stop anything that is not western sympathetic for eg: Kudankulam nuclear plant. We all know the drama that happened there and how IB report brought into limelight the thousands of crores of money brought into India to fund such protests among others.

                    Kerala is becoming a safe haven for terrorists recently and why ? . Same is slowly happening to TN as well.We saw another report on how Kerala is becoming another hub for international illegal activities.

                    Anyone has the right to convert to any religion or even be a atheist and show their middle finger to the GOD, it is enshrined in our constitution. But these laws IMO should be brought in to regulate the NGO's and Clerks to make sure they aren't involving in any activities.

                    “When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.”


                    ― Jomo Kenyatta

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                      All arguments put up by the BJP/ RSS are a clever ruse to fool the majority of Hindus who support them. If the Hindus realise the true aim of the Sangh then RSS would loose its support base.

                      This is the true agenda of the BJP/ RSS: "The Hindu wave has just begun. In 10 years we will convert all Christians and Muslims,.." statement by Rajeshwar Singh the Regional RSS Head in western UP. 'Love Jihad' and religious conversion polarise in Narendra Modi's India | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

                      The sooner people realise this the better it will be for our country.
                      The events of the past 7 months indicate that my fears (on communal and sectarian growth)on the pre-election threads...are coming true.

                      1. Engineered riots in Moradabad July 2014.
                      2. Engineered riots in Trilokpuri, Delhi Oct 2014.
                      3. Attempts to engineer riots in Oct 2014 Delhi's Bawana in the West, Majnu ka Tilla in the North and Okhla in the South. When Muharram processions were banned by local Panchayats.
                      4. In Bastar, Bihar, Bajrang Dal assault Christians when their "reconversion" ceremony flopped.
                      5. VHP's imposing its terror on Church runs schools.
                      6. This is statement shows how daft the Sangh is - Why Santa distributes chocolates? asks VHP - The Times of India
                      7. Burning of the St Sebastian Church in east Delhi Dec 2014.
                      8. RSS says it converted 200 Muslims into Hindus in Agra.
                      9. RSS body seeks donations to fund Christmas ‘conversions’ in Aligarh.

                      This is not a BJP for development , this is BJP for sectarianism.
                      Captain, I think you are coming to conclusion very fast. The church that was burned in Delhi had not been linked with any Hindu group. Also we have seen in the past where these minority groups cried foul against Hindu groups when their worship places were destroyed and after further probe it turned out to be a 'disgruntled' member of the same church that did this. So lets wait for the official investigation to be over to arrive to decisions. Engineered riots ? you got evidence for that ?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        And why is everyone crying foul for the Anti conversion laws anyway ? If I am not wrong it will only bring tight controls for the organisations that try mass conversions rather than an individual who wants to convert ? I might be wrong but this is the feel that I get. The next step should be either bring all religious groups under law or state should not control the Hindu temples as well. I hope this gets done soon.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by commander View Post
                          Captain, I think you are coming to conclusion very fast. The church that was burned in Delhi had not been linked with any Hindu group.
                          Have no illusions, the police will find nothing. The Police station is right behind the church and it took the Police 2 hours to come to the church!

                          Also we have seen in the past where these minority groups cried foul against Hindu groups when their worship places were destroyed and after further probe it turned out to be a 'disgruntled' member of the same church that did this.
                          Please give out specific instances happened this happened.

                          Engineered riots ? you got evidence for that ?
                          Well I don't blame you for asking this. I have done some research and this is what I found.

                          In Moradabad:
                          A dalit (lower caste) temple dedicated to Sant Ravidas (Saint Ravidas), was taken over by a mahant (priest) and the temple was converted to a Shiv temple, and a loud speaker was installed during the start of Ramzan and played devotional music loudly during the namaaz. The temple always had a loudspeaker installed only during the Mahashivratri festival and it was removed after that. The actions of the BJP MLAs clearly indicate that this was done to provoke the Muslims and create a communal issue.
                          http://www.firstpost.com/india/will-...n-1605351.html
                          Breach of pact sparked Moradabad riots - The Hindu
                          http://www.firstpost.com/india/will-...n-1605351.html
                          Scroll.in - News. Politics. Culture.


                          Trilokpuri:
                          Just across from a local mosque, a Mata ki Chowki or jagran is organised for the first time, and loud prayers relayed round the clock through a loudspeaker directed towards a mosque in Block 20. Tempers are further frayed when word spreads that — contrary to tradition — this makeshift temple would not be dismantled after the festival, but converted into a permanent structure. The instigator for the mob action was again the local BJP MP.

                          Bawana, Madanpura Khadar, Okhla:
                          After the Trilokpuri riots, there was a mahapanchayat in Bawana, where, according to the Indian Express, in the presence of the local Bharatiya Janata Party MLA, Gugan Singh, Muslims were warned about leading the Muharram procession along the traditional route. They were told to confine the procession to ‘their’ areas. The warning was backed up by a barely veiled threat: if the procession did pass down the customary route, the Muslims and the State machinery would be responsible for the consequences. A few days later, India Today reported that a dead pig was found in the mosque at Madanpur Khadar in Okhla, a south Delhi district with a substantial Muslim population. Next to the desecrated Gausiya Masjid stands a makeshift mata ki chowki that has come up in the last month.

                          In the aftermath of Trilokpuri, local Muslim leaders in Bawana and Okhla have been careful about keeping the peace.

                          The BJP’s Delhi leadership has either been silent about these incidents or openly partisan. This is unsurprising; the Muzaffarnagar riots in Uttar Pradesh confirmed a correlation between communal consolidation and electoral success, and the BJP seems to have taken the lesson to heart. Its local notables and cadre, even when they aren’t responsible for the violence, seem happy to keep the pot boiling.
                          A pattern of violence

                          Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by commander View Post
                            And why is everyone crying foul for the Anti conversion laws anyway ? If I am not wrong it will only bring tight controls for the organisations that try mass conversions rather than an individual who wants to convert ? I might be wrong but this is the feel that I get. The next step should be either bring all religious groups under law or state should not control the Hindu temples as well. I hope this gets done soon.
                            No one is against any anti-conversion law. It its the vitriol and venom used by the ruling party and their affiliates that are causing antagonism and polarisation.
                            Same way as the Muslim League polarised the east and west and forced a partition in 1947.

                            Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Breaking news...Now the BJP govt wants to stop Christmas Day as a holiday!.
                              Govt wants schools to observe ‘good governance day’ on Christmas - The Times of India

                              NAGPUR: If the Union government has its way, CBSE schools may have to remain open on this Christmas.

                              The Union human resource development ministry wants to celebrate the birthdays of former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Hindu Mahasabha leader Madan Mohan Malviya by observing 'good governance day' on December 25. The BJP government wants CBSE to carry out various activities, like an essay competition, so that students' participation increases....
                              What idiots the 31% voted to power!...

                              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                No School on Christmas, Says Smriti Irani, Rubbishing Newspaper Report

                                Deliberate mischief by ur reporter on the front page today.
                                Be ready for more whats app type mischief Ms Minister.
                                Last edited by ambidex; 15 Dec 14,, 09:26.

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