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  • #31
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    Yes it was never offered to us for THAT tender. The tender was over and wrapped, the two jets where short listed.

    Going by your link and as discussed by many senior members at BR it was a gimmickry thrown at us to stall the the further process supported by lobbyist like A. Shukla. Heck it is already in limbo now.
    Nice try manipulating what you yourself said.

    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    BJP's U Turns on black money and Army's court of inquiry resulting few soldiers shown door and quick apology to make elections hassle free (Army's massive responsibility and high priority) doesn't make sense.
    Ofcourse it makes sense. Politics. Every political party is the same when it comes to power or sits in opposition. However, with that I'd also admit that decision making is faster with the BJP, and the Government currently is going in the right direction.

    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    There have been court martial done and life terms sentenced to Soldier serving the same state. Your concern was never registered for them. I can guess you might have been rather appreciating the army for doing the justice.
    Concern for who? What specific incidents? I have addressed the recent issue, what is wrong is wrong.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ambidex View Post
      Let me guess again, I am not too sure if it was LT or Tronic, during a conversation with a Pakistani poster 2-3 years back here at WAB, the Indian poster was taking pride in army as an institution who hand over penalties and sentences if a wrong is done unlike PA.

      My apologies in advance if it was Tronic; for dragging him into this discussion.
      I don't know which incident you're talking about, it was not me.

      And yes, I'd take pride too for a wrong being corrected. But the Army should not be dragged for political gains, I criticised the Congress for it and now I've done the same for BJP. I see it as petty politics, you see this as justice being done. I'm fine with that.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Oracle View Post
        I don't know which incident you're talking about, it was not me.

        And yes, I'd take pride too for a wrong being corrected. But the Army should not be dragged for political gains, I criticised the Congress for it and now I've done the same for BJP. I see it as petty politics, you see this as justice being done. I'm fine with that.
        I think you have missed the point totally. It is far more dangerous to pitch army against GoI by using hoax and conspiracy theories than Army leadership making it easier for GoI to conduct free and fair elections at the cost of expediting a case against its soldiers of an incident published by media and outrage shown by locals.

        All your arguments are showing that

        1. You have no faith in Court inquiry done by Army.

        2. By your logic the Army leadership and GoI connived together, against Soldiers to make a bad decision.

        Let it be.

        The army leadership and GOI made that decision after weighing all the pros and cons together. I see no traction or contradiction happening here that civilians should have sleepless nights over it.

        Civilians should be more worried if such hoaxes are going to become part of main stream media and political discourse. Like the one Ajay Shukla did by picking a hoax and published it on his blog writing ~1000 word article.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Oracle View Post
          Nice try manipulating what you yourself said.
          That was hard one to pull out

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
            I think you have missed the point totally. It is far more dangerous to pitch army against GoI by using hoax and conspiracy theories than Army leadership making it easier for GoI to conduct free and fair elections at the cost of expediting a case against its soldiers of an incident published by media and outrage shown by locals.
            If you're talking about Ajai Shukla, then I should say I hardly follow what he writes, so I cannot comment on that. However, I guess retired Army guys keep in touch with their unit, and also with people still serving on the unit, and like to know what the old chaps are upto, more so when soldiers die. Maybe, LT can validate that.

            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
            All your arguments are showing that

            1. You have no faith in Court inquiry done by Army.
            No. I have faith. My point is there shouldn't have been any inquiry or prosecution. AFSPA exists for a reason. I just don't see the unfortunate shooting of the young guys as a crime. No crime, no punishment - particularly in Kashmir, NE and the Maoist belt.

            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
            2. By your logic the Army leadership and GoI connived together, against Soldiers to make a bad decision.
            I wouldn't say connived. I'd say the GoI asked the General (or whosoever concerned) in-charge to shut up. Maybe it's political pressure. IMV it's petty politics.

            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
            Let it be.

            The army leadership and GOI made that decision after weighing all the pros and cons together. I see no traction or contradiction happening here that civilians should have sleepless nights over it.
            Probably, yes. Time will tell.

            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
            Civilians should be more worried if such hoaxes are going to become part of main stream media and political discourse. Like the one Ajay Shukla did by picking a hoax and published it on his blog writing ~1000 word article.
            I don't know the man.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • #36
              Jammu and Kashmir rally: Did Narendra Modi undermine the Army's authority?

              In Srinagar, campaigning for his party BJP, Prime Minister Narendra Modi tried to play the role of a senior statesman much in the mould of former PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Stressing that he would repay the love of the people of Kashmir, Modi said that their development would be on the top of his agenda.

              But while striking a sombre, conciliatory tone with the people of Kashmir, Modi said, "It is the first time that the Army owned up to the mistake of gunning down two innocent youth in a press conference and action has been taken against those who opened fire. This had not happened in the last 30 years. Ye Modi sarkar ka kaamal hai. Ye mere nek iradon ka saboot hai." (This is the wonder of Modi Government. It is a proof of my honest intentions)​.
              Cheap politics. I didn't expect this from Mr. Modi, but then he too is just a power hungry politician.

              Rest of the article -

              While Narendra Modi probably tried to give the message that his administration will have a humane attitude towards the people of Kashmir, while driving home his point, he also undermined the authority of the Army in a way. The Indian Army is an apolitical body and has its own justice system. But Modi indicated that they got their act together only after he came to power. This is a dangerous suggestion to make, fraught with possibly dire consequences. Does the statement mean that in cases where justice was not done in time, there was a lack of political will or that a politician had a 'galaat irada'?

              According to an ex-Army officer speaking on the condition of anonymity, the Army justice system is completely independent of the executive and bureaucracy. Hence, PM Modi may have just jumped the gun with his statement. Another line of thought is that Modi may have implied to say that acche din have generally begun after his government came to power. But PM Modi's claim is still controversial if the timeline of the incidents in the Machil fake encounter case is considered. As early as December 25, 2013 the Army had ordered a court martial of five Army men, which was nearly five months before Modi came to power. So the Army's prompt action in the Chattergam incident (which he most probably referred to) where two innocent youth were gunned down, wasn't the first of its kind. All that can be said is that the then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley promptly condemned the incident to prevent the incident from going out of control.

              Sure, the government was seen as being assertive and reaching out to the people. But by saying that justice was done only because of his government, Modi has probably exceeded his brief. Jammu and Kashmir is a complicated place, with a perennial tension between the state, Army and a section of the people. There are forces from outside the border trying to use any possible misstep by the Indian establishment. The Army works in extremely difficult conditions, often treading on thin ice. Thus we have to be doubly cautious. Semantics matter as much as real politick does. Winning Jammu and Kashmir for his party, the BJP, is obviously a prime concern for Narendra Modi, but maintaining the sanctity of the armed forces trumps that, ten out of ten days.
              Overall, this article echoes my sentiments.
              Last edited by Oracle; 09 Dec 14,, 17:37.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                The whatsapp message was also posted on my coursemates whatsapp group.
                It really spread like wildfire in most military coursemate groups.

                After the Badgam incident, most of our regimental groups were rife with messages that examples should not be made of the men as the incident was a operation error and not murder. These were written by retired Brigadiers and Generals. But by 27 Nov, as per the Govt instructions 9 men of the 53 RR were found guilty by a COI and directed to face Court Martial and possibly life imprisonment. For what - for following SOP drills in an insurgency area!

                The Northern Army commander is currently addressing the damage done by the two incidents to unit moral by writing to all units. This has also been forwarded on most Army whatsapp groups.


                Its not about Ajay Shukla, but about the sentiment that has erupted amongst the units.
                Captain, I completely agree with you that the GoI made a huge blunder by pushing the Army to punish those men. Modi himself claimed it as an achievement saying no other govt. had been able to get the Army to say they were wrong. I'm not sure what possessed him to commit such a sin, but I guess it was aimed at his detractors who have a habit of calling him anti-Muslim (and with one eye on the J&K elections no doubt). I'm also sure they would have done exactly that had he not acted. So he knew he was in a "damned if you do..." situation, but as PM he should have made the right call even if it was hard, but he failed to do that and tried to cover his own a$$. Unforgivable.

                Having said that, it is pretty clear now, that that particular decision really had no bearing on the Uri terrorist attack. The Whatsapp message may have been very popular, even outside army circles, but it was just plain wrong. The attackers sneaked in by cutting the fence (ref. DE's post) . They did not come in a vehicle. The result of the attack would have been the same had the Govt. not taken any action on the badgam incident. The element of surprise can trump the best of SOPs.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                  Having said that, it is pretty clear now, that that particular decision really had no bearing on the Uri terrorist attack. The Whatsapp message may have been very popular, even outside army circles, but it was just plain wrong. The attackers sneaked in by cutting the fence (ref. DE's post) . They did not come in a vehicle. The result of the attack would have been the same had the Govt. not taken any action on the badgam incident. The element of surprise can trump the best of SOPs.
                  This

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                    The Whatsapp message may have been very popular, even outside army circles, but it was just plain wrong. The attackers sneaked in by cutting the fence (ref. DE's post) . They did not come in a vehicle. The result of the attack would have been the same had the Govt. not taken any action on the badgam incident. The element of surprise can trump the best of SOPs.
                    This is were the confusion starts, since we are not privileged to the actual action report we can only guess. After the whatsapp damage, the Army is making statements that the terrorists entered from the rear, but the initial news reports of the day give another view.

                    J-K: Militants kill 11 security men in Uri, more attacks in Srinagar, Shopian and Tral
                    Army officials said that the militants who had divided themselves into two groups attacked the Army camp at 3.10 am, initially with small arms and then also used Under Barrel Grenade Launchers (UBGLs). They added that while some militants tried to enter the camp, their accomplices laid an ambush to block the way of Army reinforcements from relocating to the area but were soon engaged in gun battles at both places. Police sources, however, said that at least three militants had actually entered the camp after killing four soldiers on the road outside. Asked if it was a ‘fidayeen’ (suicide) attack, an officer of Army 19 Infantry Division said on condition of anonymity as he is not authorized to talk to media “It looks it was like that.” He also said that two Army barracks inside the camp caught fire during the fighting.
                    So we don't know if the Army is lying to undo the damage from the social media messages or if their version is the correct one.

                    But unfortunately the damage is already done to the Army's moral.

                    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                      These disgruntled elements spreading treachery should be brought to book.
                      Then maybe we will have to raise a new officer cadre, because you would have to "book" almost 60-70% of the officer lot.

                      Very right, the army has to coexist with locals, the decision to apologies was right; successful election were priority. The vally has seen many long protests started with minor incidents.

                      Absolutely, Army knows how to work under pressures and take difficult decisions.
                      I have the full extract of this letter to the troops.
                      What the General failed to tell his subordinates was how to deal with civilians when they refuse to stop at barricades or flee from check-posts?

                      Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                        Then maybe we will have to raise a new officer cadre, because you would have to "book" almost 60-70% of the officer lot.
                        You have failed to provide a single proof of your claims against rank and file of Indian army who by your claim connived with Modi and made a wrong decision that has infuriated 60-70% of the army. No one is going to take your word seriously because they will know you are present government's compulsive critic.

                        You are putting doubt on your army leadership's decision making by exaggerating facts. The latest is the reference of the letter which you are privy of, for no good reason.

                        If letter is not talking about specific tactic or scenarios then it clearly means the old tactics are going to be the same, nothing changed. The letter might have been a balancing act with GOI, to keep all the parties involved placid.
                        Last edited by ambidex; 10 Dec 14,, 12:46.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                          rank and file of Indian army
                          Ok, the rank and file of the Indian Army are the grunts, sappers, gunners, cooks, zipperheads, truck drivers, and clerks. They're not the policy makers. You're referring to the REMFs, if the term could even apply.

                          2ndly, the gripe is there and is widespread. To say it's the rank and file's fault means that you have absolutely no clue how this gripe came to being or how to address it.

                          You are ignoring what is going on in order to defend at least what is perceived to be a Modi influenced decision.

                          Not good leadership.

                          Leadership may be as simple as "This is the way it is. Deal with it and make it work." Acknowledge the gripe and give the soldiers the tools and the responsibility to make it work. Not, Modi didn't do anything to deserve this gripe. He did. He did not address it.
                          Chimo

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                            But by 27 Nov, as per the Govt instructions 9 men of the 53 RR were found guilty by a COI and directed to face Court Martial and possibly life imprisonment. For what - for following SOP drills in an insurgency area!
                            These are men who have been sent for a very specific purpose. To punish them for doing their job is not justice for anyone.

                            If the court martial was done because of political pressure I think then the cause is lost, they will just bring decedance into the organization just like every other government service and PSU, hardly capable of functioning leave alone defending the nation.

                            Already the corruption in military and MoD is too much for comfort.
                            Last edited by kuku; 10 Dec 14,, 19:08.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                              This is were the confusion starts, since we are not privileged to the actual action report we can only guess. After the whatsapp damage, the Army is making statements that the terrorists entered from the rear, but the initial news reports of the day give another view.

                              J-K: Militants kill 11 security men in Uri, more attacks in Srinagar, Shopian and Tral


                              So we don't know if the Army is lying to undo the damage from the social media messages or if their version is the correct one.
                              They're not lying, as happens so often with these developments the story becomes more clear as time goes on.

                              Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                              But unfortunately the damage is already done to the Army's moral.
                              They'll get over it once they get some shiny new toys. As soon as the elections are over, it will be 'army has been given free hand' once again. This govt and the military are going to be best of friends :)

                              Recall the crap the US military had to put up with in Iraq & Afganistan when their infintely wise govt said what and what not to do. At times almost aiding & abetting. Partisan attacks galore. This is not even going to compare. It happens.

                              War is too serious a matter to leave to soldiers - Georges Clemenceau
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Dec 14,, 22:35.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                                You have failed to provide a single proof of your claims against rank and file of Indian army who by your claim connived with Modi and made a wrong decision that has infuriated 60-70% of the army. No one is going to take your word seriously because they will know you are present government's compulsive critic.
                                Lol...your are so blind in your devotion for Modi that you cannot see the truth. Anyway, that is your prerogative and I don't have to prove anything to you.

                                You are putting doubt on your army leadership's decision making by exaggerating facts. The latest is the reference of the letter which you are privy of, for no good reason.
                                The letter is out in the media, so you can read it too.
                                Northern Army Commander Lt General DS Hooda writes to troops after sulphurous social media outpouring on Uri attack : India, News - India Today

                                If things were not this desperate, why would the Army release a DO letter to the media?

                                Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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