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  • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
    I just wonder if Boeing has made a proposal to the USAF regarding that. It owns the Growler airframe.
    My impression is that the F-15 airframe is getting a little "long in the tooth"; the F-15 is, after all, a 45-year old design. Yes, it has been upgraded over the years to the point where it's comparable to a Gen 4.5 airframe (aka: the F-15SE), but it's still a 45-year old design, and nobody's buying the SE (why buy an F-15SE for $100M when you can get a ground-up 5th-gen fighter for only slightly more?).

    So, on the one hand, it would make sense to combine the best features of the F-15E and the EF-18G to make a world-beating EW platform but, in the end, you're still buying a non-stealthy 20th-century airframe with limited growth potential.
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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    • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
      I just wonder if Boeing has made a proposal to the USAF regarding that. It owns the Growler airframe.
      My impression is that the F-15 airframe is getting a little "long in the tooth"; the F-15 is, after all, a 45-year old design. Yes, it has been upgraded over the years to the point where it's comparable to a Gen 4.5 airframe (aka: the F-15SE), but it's still a 45-year old design, and nobody's buying the SE (why buy an F-15SE for $100M when you can get a ground-up 5th-gen fighter for only slightly more?).

      So, on the one hand, it would make sense to combine the best features of the F-15E and the EF-18G to make a world-beating EW platform but, in the end, you're still buying a non-stealthy 20th-century airframe with limited growth potential.
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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      • The outcome equals no organic EW support.
        Ego Numquam

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        • Originally posted by Chunder View Post
          To be fair the F-111 was a maintenance nightmare anyway which hastened it's retirement (RAAF hit a brick wall with it's F-111 model in 2005). IF the USAF was serious about it's EF's, it would have swapped that role onto the F-15, or had plans for it anyway. Electronic warfare and not the platform is the issue.

          NOW, if the USAF considers jamming important, where is the money for it? The F-35 is alleged to have considerable capabilities... but neither the USN, or the RAAF who will both be operators of the F-35 consider it sufficient. I wouldn't exactly call the RAAF an organisation to have money to throw around, but it's investment in the EA-18G, is significant. Again, both air arms are operators of the AN/ALE decoy. Obviously as you point out in the USAF it still is under-valued.
          From what I understand, the F-35 is being built with sufficient EW capability that it shouldn't require dedicated EW aircraft in support. The ability to take care of itself in that regard is admirable, but until the NGJ comes out it may not have the juice to take care of 4+ accompanying 4th gen fighters as well. I think that is the niche the Growlers are needed for.

          The USN isn't about to retire the Super Hornets that benefit from dedicated jamming support, and it isn't buying the numbers of F-35s that the USAF and USMC are. The other issue is that the Next Generation Jammer isn't scheduled to be ready to go until the early 2020s, and the Navy can't afford to wait that long since they have to gear up for a potential South China Sea conflict, and they don't have a pile of stealth aircraft to use in the mean time.

          Thankfully, the USAF should be better situated for EW going forward, since the F-35s have some latent EW capability, and are being built pre-plumbed for the NGJ pod when it is ready. This should help prevent the USAF from being caught with it's pants down, as there won't be a dedicated EW platform to put on the chopping block when funding gets tight.

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          • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
            From what I understand, the F-35 is being built with sufficient EW capability that it shouldn't require dedicated EW aircraft in support. The ability to take care of itself in that regard is admirable, but until the NGJ comes out it may not have the juice to take care of 4+ accompanying 4th gen fighters as well. I think that is the niche the Growlers are needed for.
            To a limited degree, the F-22 also has an electronic attack capability using it's AN/APG-77 AESA radar: "The Raptors’ powerful phased array radar may even be usable as a weapon of sorts; StrategyPage has opined that with the addition of other equipment, future upgrades may make it possible to focus enough energy from the F/A-22’s AESA radar in particular to damage the electronics of enemy sensors."

            http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ew-role-01379/
            "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
              To a limited degree, the F-22 also has an electronic attack capability using it's AN/APG-77 AESA radar: "The Raptors’ powerful phased array radar may even be usable as a weapon of sorts; StrategyPage has opined that with the addition of other equipment, future upgrades may make it possible to focus enough energy from the F/A-22’s AESA radar in particular to damage the electronics of enemy sensors."

              http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ew-role-01379/
              It wouldn't surprise me if that were true, Raptor pilots have stated that the height, speed, and agility the F-22 brings are some of its least impressive assets, where as its information management is impressive as hell.

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              • Steve, as I said, Im not really buying that line. The USN and RAAF are both dual operators, the RAAF in particular does not have the money to throw about. There are also dedicated systems in dedicated platforms that go a long way past AESA, processing power, response modulation, multi task output to various threats at any given time. Don't forget the super hornet also has AESA. At either rate the Growler is just another piece of an approach the USN has been developing over a long period of time. Bluntly put. Anti Access weapons don't mean shit if they can't hit their targets, and NAVY has 10's of billions of dollars floating about worth protecting.
                Ego Numquam

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                • Here's some perspective on the F35 and F22 from a USMC Hornet driver who also was a FAC in Iraq:

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                  • http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/thi...cat-1725012279

                    another good article.

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                    • Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
                      Yeah, just got done reading that blog. He had a couple of other good articles on the same website; here's one of them:

                      http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/wha...y-f-1655347873
                      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by citanon View Post
                        Here's some perspective on the F35 and F22 from a USMC Hornet driver who also was a FAC in Iraq:

                        So, in essence, fighting the battle is like surfing the internet. Problem is, that this philosophy works only if the other side has the net.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Versus View Post
                          So, in essence, fighting the battle is like surfing the internet. Problem is, that this philosophy works only if the other side has the net.
                          No, if you have information dominance and the other side does not, you're likely to win.

                          Imagine for example, 19th century warfare where one side has radios with picture and video transmission capability (smartphones, in essence) right down to the squad level, aided and abetted by an enormous command center to receive, process, analyze and then redistribute the "take" from all of that intelligence... and the other side doesn't.

                          Or in more modern terms: Blue Squadron of F-15C Eagles has an AWACS directing them, whilst Red Squadron, consisting of identical F-15C Eagles, does not.
                          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                          • Guess his comment was, what happens if that link from the AWACS goes down.
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                            • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              Guess his comment was, what happens if that link from the AWACS goes down.
                              I assumed (stupid, I know) that when he said "other side", he meant opposition.

                              Alternately, if he was referring to same force allies, well if the datalink goes down, I'd say there are some BIG problems.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                                Guess his comment was, what happens if that link from the AWACS goes down.
                                Back to WWI dog fight mode...

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