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Thread: As expected, riot v2.0

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    The sad part is all the media coverage and anticipation for this has left me with not even an iota of shock. The time for considering the implications of this in the socioeconomic/judicial realm can wait, now is the time to mourn the fall of sensibility in the town of Ferguson.
    Bro,the very fact you can predict with pinpoint accuracy the media coverage,the anticipation and the result is of huge meaning.And the meaning is there is litlle greyzone left.
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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    My son and I talked about this on the way to work; he said, "What a great idea! 'I'm pissed off, so let's go out and trash our own town!'" I understand the anger/frustration, I don't understand the destruction of property and mayhem.
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

  3. #18
    Senior Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    Bro,the very fact you can predict with pinpoint accuracy the media coverage,the anticipation and the result is of huge meaning.And the meaning is there is litlle greyzone left.
    I have no doubt a large part of this is due to the marginalization of the lower class black communities around the country and subsequent profiling and increased aggression towards blacks by police. Also a large part of this, as with any other riots may also be attributed to the actions of a few firebrands lighting the powder keg. Then again MLK and civil disobedience faced these very same struggles down without resorting to riots, so there really is nothing much to offer but disappointment at the whole thing at this point.
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  4. #19
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    Family Dollar, Dollar Tree, Little Caesars, Advance Auto, O'Reilly's, Walgreens, Toys R Us, Ferguson Antiques and Collectibles, Ferguson Market and Liquor, Mini Storage, Beauty World, an Optometrists office, a Dentist office, Auto By Credit, Conoco gas station, Phillips Gas Station, London's Wing House, Juanita's Fashion Boutique, Fashions R Boutique, Reds BBQ, STL Cordless (cellular), Energy Express (gas station), Dellwood Market, Cho Suey (Chinese), AJ&R Pawn (stolen guns...), Corner Coffeehouse, Hidden Treasures (flea market), Halls Ferry Shopping Center, Quiznos, El Palenque (Mexican), Cafe Natasha, JC Wireless, Sam's Meat Market, Autozone, St. Louis Bread Co, McDonalds, Fed Ex store, Bank of America, Radio Shack, The Gin Shop...
    A list of businesses damaged, destroyed, looted or burned last night.... Those are jobs Its going to be hard for the community of only 21,000 people to rebuild from the loss of so much tax revenue and employment. For an example of how things spiral out. They lost 3 auto parts stores- how can the mechanics get parts to fix cars= no/ reduced work for them.
    What we saw last night was not rage, not protest, not excusable it was community self immolation. How many small business owners and their employees don't get Thanksgiving or Christmas now? All for the memory of a man who was a strong armed robber. Sure the chain stores might come back, but what about the locals who had built up a business....
    Then there are the closed schools- can't teach kids to be future adults is class is out so hooligans can have fun. Or shooting at fire fighters.... seriously WTF, who does that?
    Police brutality? Nah, last night was primal thuggery.

  5. #20
    Regular dan m's Avatar
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    It was indeed thuggery and saying it was anything else is insulting to those who are truly saddened by Michael Brown's death. Situations like these always seem to bring out a mass of opportunistic people looking to get free stuff or destroy things. What comes to my mind is the Sublime song April 29th, 1992.

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    Meanwhile, 311 miles to the South, the same number of people who rioted showed up to look for a missing two year old. its all about where a person and community has its priorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Family Dollar, Dollar Tree, Little Caesars, Advance Auto, O'Reilly's, Walgreens, Toys R Us, Ferguson Antiques and Collectibles, Ferguson Market and Liquor, Mini Storage, Beauty World, an Optometrists office, a Dentist office, Auto By Credit, Conoco gas station, Phillips Gas Station, London's Wing House, Juanita's Fashion Boutique, Fashions R Boutique, Reds BBQ, STL Cordless (cellular), Energy Express (gas station), Dellwood Market, Cho Suey (Chinese), AJ&R Pawn (stolen guns...), Corner Coffeehouse, Hidden Treasures (flea market), Halls Ferry Shopping Center, Quiznos, El Palenque (Mexican), Cafe Natasha, JC Wireless, Sam's Meat Market, Autozone, St. Louis Bread Co, McDonalds, Fed Ex store, Bank of America, Radio Shack, The Gin Shop...
    A list of businesses damaged, destroyed, looted or burned last night.... Those are jobs Its going to be hard for the community of only 21,000 people to rebuild from the loss of so much tax revenue and employment. For an example of how things spiral out. They lost 3 auto parts stores- how can the mechanics get parts to fix cars= no/ reduced work for them.
    What we saw last night was not rage, not protest, not excusable it was community self immolation. How many small business owners and their employees don't get Thanksgiving or Christmas now? All for the memory of a man who was a strong armed robber. Sure the chain stores might come back, but what about the locals who had built up a business....
    Then there are the closed schools- can't teach kids to be future adults is class is out so hooligans can have fun. Or shooting at fire fighters.... seriously WTF, who does that?
    Police brutality? Nah, last night was primal thuggery.
    This is the thing that gets me. I understand why they are angry, but what the fajita did the owners and workers at Toys R Us or Ferguson Antiques have to do with it?!? How many workers living on paycheck to paycheck budgets lose a day's worth or more of pay because of this? It is thuggery and it is committed by a bunch of cowards. Also notice the lack of police stations and gov't offices to the list?

    I am curious how many doing the actual burning and looting are actually Ferguson residents. I would think most of those are outsiders that really don't give a rip about the City of Ferguson and only want to use it for their fiery soapbox. Protest at city hall, the county office, at police stations, I get that, but to burn the town does nothing to help and only hurts Ferguson.

    A question I will raise. I understand the police not wanting to escalate the situation, but when you have that much damage, don't the owners and workers of the stores deserve some level of protection? Or do you hope it is just one or two nights and then the mob will get bored?

  8. #23
    Regular dan m's Avatar
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    Zraver, from what I've gathered you are a police officer. I agree with you that damage done to the community was unnecessary and criminal. Burning down small stores and cars doesn't solve anything. However was there anything the police could have done to calm the situation down? Was there anything that the state could have done better to avoid what happened last night? Do you feel that the police are overly militarized?

  9. #24
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    My son and I talked about this on the way to work; he said, "What a great idea! 'I'm pissed off, so let's go out and trash our own town!'" I understand the anger/frustration, I don't understand the destruction of property and mayhem.
    Does make one yearn for those days when martial law is declared and we will shoot looters on sight. Even a 1000 miles away there were looters trashing a few businesses in Oakland for beer, bottled water, coffee beans and chips.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan m View Post
    Zraver, from what I've gathered you are a police officer. I agree with you that damage done to the community was unnecessary and criminal. Burning down small stores and cars doesn't solve anything. However was there anything the police could have done to calm the situation down? Was there anything that the state could have done better to avoid what happened last night? Do you feel that the police are overly militarized?
    Not a cop, a search and rescue worker.

    However (and this goes for Jimbo as well), I was listening the Missouri State Highway Police Troop C Unified Incident Command scanner (troop C) last night. St Louis County Sheriff's office (sheriff) had riot duty at the expected protest sites and to protect critical infrastructure. Troop C who had wide area security was busy all night once things began happening. They had multiple squads out trying to stop looting and more officers on roving patrol. These assets were then forced to retreat in the face of gun fire or being seriously outnumbered. At one point they had a trooper missing and were in a near panic but he was found safe. Warfighter (National Guard) was on Troop C's net but was not deployed until about 1 AM. Governor Nixon dropped the ball big time there. Of note they reported a Pontiac G6 involved in a shooting last night, today a man was found dead in a Pontiac G6.

    In short it looks like the cops concentrated their resources to deal with protests and were waiting on the National Guard to show up as cavalry/ fire brigades and were not prepared to deal with the wide spread and dispersed outbreak of violence without support from the National Guard. Why it took the National Guard 5 hours to get into action when they were in the area is a question that needs to be answered. I started listening to Troop C's coms before 5pm so I know they were on Troop C's net. Apparently the governor is claiming the troops were in St Louis proper but like I said, I head them on Troop C's net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree View Post
    What is this about?
    Gangbanging thug punches cop, goes for his gun and gets shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedicabby View Post
    White copper shoots unarmed black yoof. White copper gets off.
    Oh yes, I did not realize. Sorry for the silly question.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  13. #28
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    The sad part is all the media coverage and anticipation for this has left me with not even an iota of shock. The time for considering the implications of this in the socioeconomic/judicial realm can wait, now is the time to mourn the fall of sensibility in the town of Ferguson.
    Is there anything about this from the shooting to the Grand Jury to the riots that has been a surprise? Nothing from the moment I heard about Brown being shot has been a surprise. I wasn't surprised last time something like this happened & I won't be surprised next time. Wish I could say otherwise. I really do.


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    Just a thought, but a 17 year old dead in the street with ten shots in him is a bit worrying.


    TENSIONS IN FERGUSON

    CRIMINAL JUSTICE
    Officer Darren Wilson's story is unbelievable. Literally.
    Updated by Ezra Klein on November 25, 2014, 11:00 a.m. ET @ezraklein

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    The St. Louis county officials released photos of Officer Darren Wilson after his altercation with Michael Brown.
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    We've finally heard from Officer Darren Wilson.

    Wilson had been publicly silent since the events of August 9, when he shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. And, even as the grand jury announced its decision not to indict him, he remained silent. He had his attorneys release a statement on his behalf.


    But on Monday night, St. Louis County prosecutor Robert McCulloch released the evidence given to the grand jury, including the interview police did with Wilson in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. And so we got to read, for the first time, Wilson's full, immediate account of his altercation with Brown.

    And it is unbelievable.

    I mean that in the literal sense of the term: "difficult or impossible to believe." But I want to be clear here. I'm not saying Wilson is lying. I'm not saying his testimony is false. I am saying that the events, as he describes them, are simply bizarre. His story is difficult to believe.

    The story Wilson tells goes like this:

    At about noon on August 9th, Wilson hears on the radio that there's a theft in progress at the Ferguson Market. The suspect is a black male in a black shirt.

    Moments later, Wilson sees two young black men walking down the yellow stripe in the center of the street. He pulls over. "Hey guys, why don't you walk on the sidewalk?" They refuse. "We're almost at our destination," one of them replies. Wilson tries again. "But what's wrong with the sidewalk?" he asks.

    And then things get weird.

    Brown's response to "what's wrong with the sidewalk?", as recorded by Wilson, is "fuck what you have to say." Remember, Wilson is a uniformed police officer, in a police car, and Brown is an 18-year-old kid who just committed a robbery. And when asked to use the sidewalk, Wilson says Brown replied, "Fuck what you have to say."

    WILSON SAYS BROWN REPLIED, "FUCK WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY."

    Wilson backs his car up and begins to open the door. "Hey, come here," he said to the kid who just cursed at him. He says Brown replied, "What the fuck you gonna do?" And then Brown, in Wilson's telling, slams the car door closed. Wilson tries to open the door again, tells Brown to get back, and then Brown leans into the vehicle and begins punching him.



    Photos surround Michael Brown's casket in Ferguson, MO. (Richard Perry-Pool/Getty Images)

    Let's take a breath and recap. Wilson sees two young black men walking in the middle of the street. He pulls over and politely asks them to use the sidewalk. They refuse. He asks again, still polite. Brown tells Wilson — again, a uniformed police officer in a police car — "fuck what you have to say." Wilson stops his car, tries to get out, and Brown slams the car door on him and then begins punching him through the open window.

    What happens next is the most unbelievable moment in the narrative. And so it's probably best that I just quote Wilson's account at length on it.

    I was doing the, just scrambling, trying to get his arms out of my face and him from grabbing me and everything else. He turned to his...if he's at my vehicle, he turned to his left and handed the first subject. He said, "here, take these." He was holding a pack of — several packs of cigarillos which was just, what was stolen from the Market Store was several packs of cigarillos. He said, "here, hold these" and when he did that I grabbed his right arm trying just to control something at that point. Um, as I was holding it, and he came around, he came around with his arm extended, fist made, and went like that straight at my face with his...a full swing from his left hand.

    So Brown is punching inside the car. Wilson is scrambling to deflect the blows, to protect his face, to regain control of the situation. And then Brown stops, turns to his left, says to his friend, "Here, hold these," and hands him the cigarillos stolen from Ferguson Market. Then he turns back to Wilson and, with his left hand now freed from holding the contraband goods, throws a haymaker at Wilson.

    Every bullshit detector in me went off when I read that passage. Which doesn't mean that it didn't happen exactly the way Wilson describes. But it is, again, hard to imagine. Brown, an 18-year-old kid holding stolen goods, decides to attack a cop and, while attacking him, stops, hands his stolen goods to his friend, and then returns to the beatdown. It reads less like something a human would do and more like a moment meant to connect Brown to the robbery.

    Wilson next recounts his thought process as he reached for a weapon. He considered using his mace, but at such close range, the mace might get in his eyes, too. He doesn't carry a taser with a fireable cartridge, but even if he did, "it probably wouldn't have hit [Brown] anywhere". Wilson couldn't reach his baton or his flashlight. So he went for his gun.

    Brown sees him go for the gun. And he replies: "You're too much of a fucking pussy to shoot me."

    "YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A FUCKING PUSSY TO SHOOT ME."

    Again, stop for a moment and think about that. Brown is punching Wilson, sees the terrified cop reaching for his gun, and says "You're too much of a fucking pussy to shoot me." He dares him to shoot.



    A protestors holds up a sign saying "don't shoot". (Joe Raedle/Getty Images)

    And then Brown grabs Wilson's gun, twists it, and points it at Wilson's "pelvic area". Wilson regains control of the firearm and gets off a shot, shattering the glass. Brown backs up a half step and, realizing he's unharmed, dives back into the car to attack Wilson. Wilson fires again, and then Brown takes off running. (You can see the injuries Wilson sustained from the fight in these photographs.)

    Wilson exits the car to give chase. He yells at Brown to get down on the ground. Here, I'm going to go back to Wilson's words:

    When he stopped, he turned, looked at me, made like a grunting noise and had the most intense, aggressive face I've ever seen on a person. When he looked at me, he then did like the hop...you know, like people do to start running. And, he started running at me. During his first stride, he took his right hand put it under his shirt into his waistband. And I ordered him to stop and get on the ground again. He didn't. I fired multiple shots. After I fired the multiple shots, I paused a second, yelled at him to get on the ground again, he was still in the same state. Still charging, hand still in his waistband, hadn't slowed down.

    The stuff about Brown putting his hand in his waistband is meant to suggest that Wilson had reason to believe Brown might pull a gun. But it's strange. We know Brown didn't have a gun. And that's an odd fact to obscure while charging a police officer.

    Either way, at that point, Wilson shoots again, and kills Brown.

    There are inconsistencies in Wilson's story. He estimates that Brown ran 20-30 feet away from the car and then charged another 10 feet back towards Wilson. But we know Brown died 150 feet away from the car.

    There are also consistencies. St Louis prosecutor Robert McCulloch said that Brown's DNA was found inside Wilson's car, suggesting there was a physical altercation inside the vehicle. We know shots were fired from inside the car. We know Brown's bullet wounds show he was only hit from the front, never from the back.

    But the larger question is, in a sense, simpler: Why?

    Why did Michael Brown, an 18-year-old kid headed to college, refuse to move from the middle of the street to the sidewalk? Why would he curse out a police officer? Why would he attack a police officer? Why would he dare a police officer to shoot him? Why would he charge a police officer holding a gun? Why would he put his hand in his waistband while charging, even though he was unarmed?

    NONE OF THIS FITS WITH WHAT WE KNOW OF MICHAEL BROWN

    None of this fits with what we know of Michael Brown. Brown wasn't a hardened felon. He didn't have a death wish. And while he might have been stoned, this isn't how stoned people act. The toxicology report did not indicate he was on PCP or something that would've led to suicidal aggression.

    Which doesn't mean Wilson is a liar. Unbelievable things happen every day. The fact that his story raises more questions than it answers doesn't mean it isn't true.

    But the point of a trial would have been to try to answer these questions. We would have either found out if everything we thought we knew about Brown was wrong, or if Wilson's story was flawed in important ways. But now we're not going to get that chance. We're just left with Wilson's unbelievable story.

    More: Michael Brown spent his last day with his friend Dorian Johnson. Johnson was also there when Officer Wilson stopped Brown. Here's where Johnson's testimony corroborates, and diverges, from Wilson's account.

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  15. #30
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Is there anything about this from the shooting to the Grand Jury to the riots that has been a surprise? Nothing from the moment I heard about Brown being shot has been a surprise. I wasn't surprised last time something like this happened & I won't be surprised next time. Wish I could say otherwise. I really do.
    A the law stands in the U.S. it is very hard to convince a grand jury that someone should be charged (Police Officer or civilian) in a shooting situation where the defense mantra is "I was in fear of my life". The burden of proof ways heavily on the State which convince the jury that the actions of the accused were egregious/excessive in the circumstances. Sans video evidence or forensics at the scene that is usually a tall order. What made it worse in this situation was the apparently broken relationship between the local PD and the community. That is going to take a decades of hard work by a lot of people, especially the Police Department.

    The question is whether someone is going to put a 'broom' through the Department in the hope a whole raft of new faces might change things. Either way no-one in that community is going to get a win out of recent events - not in the short term anyway.

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